Marle Cordeiro: High Stakes Cash Game Crusher, Co-host of “The Rake”, & YouTube Vlogger

Brad: Welcome my friend to the Chasing Poker Greatness podcast. As always, this is your host, the founder of chasingpokergreatness.com, Coach Brad Wilson. And today’s guest is high stakes cash game Crusher, YouTube vlogger, and fellow poker podcaster, Marle Cordeiro. It’s always refreshing when I’m reminded of some undeniable truths that exists in the world. One of those is that you simply cannot be courageous without being afraid. And I guarantee that anyone who’s put themselves out there in a vulnerable and significant way, has felt a massive amount of fear. But the ones who emerge from the other side after dealing with hateful comments and the vicious barrage of the denizens of the internet are made of iron. Marle is one such human and I know that you’re going to come away from this conversation, feeling the exact same way. In today’s episode, you’ll learn how Marle was exposed to the real world of poker from an early age, why getting shown at tough love by her first backer was an absolute boon for her poker career, why she believes having tough conversations to hash out our differences is vastly superior to Twitter wars, and much more. So, without any further ado, I bring to you the indomitable, Marle Cordeiro. 

 

Brad: Marle, welcome to the show. How you doing?

 

Marle: Good. Thanks for having me.

 

Brad: Yeah, it’s my pleasure. You are about as hot as I am right now, huh, in the UK?

 

Marle: Yeah. I am. They don’t really believe in air conditioning here, which I did not know before I came or I wouldn’t have come.

 

Brad: Why? Why don’t they believe in air conditioning? Why is this a thing? Because it seems patently absurd to me.

 

Marle: Because I think it’s just not hot enough of the time to warrant it. It rains a lot. But the days that it does get hot, it is only probably a few weeks of the year. But those weeks really kill you.

 

Brad: Is it limited to households, like the Starbucks have AC to do restaurants?

 

Marle: Um, Starbucks? Yeah. They’ll be like some major stores and stuff we’ll have for sure. But yeah,

 

Brad: Luckily, luckily, you can’t go do that during the pandemic. So

 

Marle: It’s great. Yeah.

 

Brad: No options. Typically starting out the show. The first question is to talk about your journey. How, what’s the story of you getting involved playing cards?

 

Marle: My dad played full time for a while when I was growing up. I live in Vegas briefly. I went to freshman year of high school in Vegas. Might I was playing live. And

 

Brad: What year, what year was your dad playing live?

 

Marle: I was like, this was like 15 years ago. So, 2005.

 

Brad: Okay.

 

Marle: About 2000, 4,5, 6.

 

Brad: Yeah. So not that long ago, relatively speaking.

 

Marle: Not that long ago. And he mostly played limit at Bellagio, and some tournaments and stuff. But he was a limit player.

 

Brad: Right.

 

Marle: But mostly, but he ended up going broke. And we had to move back home to Massachusetts, Boston and moved in with my grandparents. And it was during the recession too. So, he had like an amazing corporate job before they worked for Bose, and was crushing. But then obviously, he couldn’t get job, his big gap in his resume, and we were looking for jobs like that. It’s kind of like that. But he eventually built, you know, got a job driving airport limos for a while because that’s what I need to do. And then like, just slowly grind to the back and now he’s like, crushing it again, consulting for a bunch of companies. He does SEO stuff. But you know, I obviously my dad also is a single dad. So, during that time, you know, he was he took a very like friendship role with me. We talked about, you know, we’ve talked about hands when he come home from work, whatever. And so, it’s always been like kind of in my mind, but because I, I just couldn’t go broke and I did see how tough it can be, I never really went into poker with this dilute, not delusion, but like this idea that a lot of people I think have, you know, it’s just a smooth sailing kind of dream.

 

Brad: Yeah.

 

Marle: And it wasn’t really ever my dream or goal to little time, I ended up going, just, I was, I did a lot of modeling in high school in Boston and I got an agency in New York. I went to college in New York, and did an end up doing a lot acting stuff. And I kind of wanted to go down that path. But when I turned 21, I did, my dad was in Vegas. I knew I would come for the World Series when I turned 21. And we play some tournament, and we’d hang out. It was always like a bonding thing for me and my dad. And, and when I had been New York for about six years, and I went through a really shitty time, in the same week, my mom passed away and my boyfriend and I broke up. And my boyfriend I’ve been with forever. So, I was just kind of lost. I was 22. And I kind of was going back and forth for a while between New York and Vegas, just kind of adrift, you know, not in a good space, not in a good place. And I ended up moving out to Vegas. And still I just kind of, you know, I played for fun, but like, I got a job as a waitress and got some roommates and just, but actually, so I have made friends because I play poker and bass a lot.

 

Brad: What year was this? For the timeline. 

 

Marle: This is, again, this is six years ago.

 

Brad: Okay, so 2014.

 

Marle: Yeah, about six, seven years ago. Maybe seven when I first came out. And so I lived with these British poker players. And, but I was a waitress. I just like, had a job. I would play for fun, whatever. And then, slowly, but surely, I met my ex-boyfriend, who play full time, all of his friends play for time. And I guess like, I kind of got more and more kind of pulled into it, I want to say. I’m not that I, I love poker. And I’ve always loved poker. But it was never like, yeah, and then I’m going to like, I can’t wait till I could just do this full time. So anyways, I ended up dating him. And because I was surrounded by so many amazing poker minds at that time, it just came to this place where I was like, I’m just and I obviously, I would have been at my job for two years, just waiting tables. And I was like, you know what, this is kind of going nowhere. I need to just stop, I need to maybe just like dive in. And so, I did. And that was, that was four years ago. So

 

Brad: I have, many questions, many questions. Firstly, you know, when your dad went broke, you had to move back. How traumatic was that for you? And did your dad like, have any negative feelings towards the game of poker after that happened? Because, you know, people go broke for a variety of reasons, not necessarily just because they punt off their bankroll or play bad or whatever, like life has this tendency of like happening. I mean,

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: Poker players have expenses that everybody else has, as well. So how did that process kind of play out?

 

Marle: Yeah, I mean, for him, it was like, he was pretty much set up to fail, because not only was he a single dad, he didn’t have any, like, I just see now how hard it is to make it in poker, when you have everything going for you. If you have friends that will stick you, if you have friends will loan you money, coach you, you know, bounce canisters off, and then you have to have low overhead in the beginning, especially like, he put me in the best school, we’ll get a nice area, get a nice place, a single dad, and he had nobody and had no friends help. And he just was self-taught. And just was like I’m doing it on my own. So, it’s like, it’s kind of recipe for failure, frankly. And I don’t think even you know, the best poker minds would have been able to survive in that, in that sense. Because poker is just so hard, you need something going for you. Especially in those early days, you need like a, you need somebody who’s like a mentor who’s willing to coach you or something. And if you don’t have that, plus you have really high overhead and responsibility, it’s just tough. And, and it was traumatic, it was hard. But he was he never really let it show and he always like made it about me. At that time, I was kind of, in this transition period myself. I’d always, my dad’s like a musician, too. And I always been really into piano. And at that time, I was, I don’t want to play piano anymore. I wanted something else. And I really wanted to model and he got me my first agent in Boston, and he would go on every shoot with me, every casting, and he was unemployed. So, he like really kind of like invested himself into me. And it was really, it was really inspiring, because like he was at his lowest point is living with his parents, you know. They had no money, no car, and he would borrow cars to like, take me into the city and like, you know, whatever. And I started making some money modeling and he was had no money so I have more money than him. And any, and I kept it all. But yeah, it was it was really, it was a really, I don’t know, challenging period, but it was really like one of the best times of my life because it just, it just showed me kind of how poker can really be I guess.

 

Brad: How does it make you feel now you know, as an adult, the sacrifices that your dad made, so that, you know, you could still have a great life and still have these experiences? How’s that make you feel?

 

Marle: Great! No, great, I mean, with honestly, like he, he really always put me first and I appreciate it more that I’m in poker because I can’t imagine, we all know what it’s like to be on downswing and to go to, like, have these low rock bottom moments and then imagine having to be a single parent. It’s just unbelievable. And, and to have to, you know, do that alone. And, and so, yeah, I mean, it makes me feel insanely grateful. And I, that’s why I really appreciate all the things I have going for me in poker, you know. I have so many advantages.

 

Brad: For sure. It’s, if you’re in a family, where you’re the sole breadwinner, and your income is poker, it is a hard existence. It is stressful, everything depends on you. When you’re on a downswing, you feel like you’re letting your family down. And that’s just so much pressure, that it’s hard for anybody to really overcome it. And really, to have a successful poker career, what, one of the most necessary things is to have a separate bankroll that you don’t have to pull out of, that can grow on its own, which typically means like, a multi income home, right? Like you need two incomes in a home to cover the bills so that, you know, you can grow the bankroll, so that you can start playing a steak, where basically you make more than just survival money, like that’s when things really start to grow. Like if you can start playing like 10-20 no limit regularly or 25-50, and your bankroll is like three or 400,000, you’re just going to build it up to a million if you never take anything out over time. It’s just going to happen, but you start having like, $10,000 in expenses every month or $15,000 in expenses, it’s hell, it’s so much pressure compounded on the actual pressure of like, you know, performing and winning at this game. That, yeah, it’s too much. And I could certainly see that. Yeah, he’s set up for failure. There’s no what other outcome is there really.

 

Marle: Yeah. Yeah, it was just I don’t know, anybody who hasn’t gone broke at some point. So, you need those, you need a support system.

 

Brad: Absolutely. And like you said, like having a mentor, who have you found in your career. Who’s, who’s been a mentor to you that you attribute to, you know, helping you grow, and just be a stronger, more resilient, better human and better poker player?

 

Marle: I was met a couple, that first person, arguably the most important person in my poker career was somebody called Josh Atkinson. And when I first quit my job,

 

Brad: Somebody called Josh Atkinson.

 

Marle: It’s just like, I don’t think that like, I don’t think, he’s a Vegas cash game grinder. I don’t know if like, many peopl, I mean, like,

 

Brad: It’s just funny. Yeah, that’s his name.

 

Marle: Somebody called, yeah, it was weird. But he’s, he’s the salt of the earth. And he was, when I first quit my job, he was my ex boyfriend’s good friend. And he was like, okay, I’ll stake you. But like, you’re going to have to, like, do things my way. And he was so hard on me. Not like, in a mean way. But like, you know, he was like, what, like, I would write down every single hand I played. I would be just taught everyday hands all the time. And what was I saying, he made me, he was like, oh, you can’t move up until you make 10 declines an hour over the sample size, and you can move up. And I remember, like, just, I remember, I was just playing like, 1-2, when I wanted to play 1-3, that I wanted to play 1-3 at the win, which is a bigger buy in. And I just like, every like step was like, was like so hard for me. But he was like, you know, you have, unless you make a type of lens and our sample size, you’re not moving up. And he was just, and that kind of, I think there aren’t that many regs who have that early on. I feel like most people are a lot of, a lot of regs. They just jump in or they have a tournament score or whatever. And they just kind of like, they learn later on.

 

Brad: Yeah.

 

Marle: Later on.

 

Brad: Oh, big tournament for 50k. And now I’m a 5-10 grinder after like never playing cash game, right?

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: I have a few questions. Number one is a quote that immediately came to mind from the last dance and I’m probably going to butcher it because my memory is awful. But basically, the quote was, the most respectful thing you can do when coaching a good player is to coach them hard. Like in my mind, hold people accountable, coach them hard, because it’s the barrier to entry, right? Like somebody that just blows smoke up your ass and tells you you’re doing great when you’re not doing great or to take chances when you’re not ready to take those chances is doing you a disservice as somebody who’s helping you on your poker journey. Like you need somebody to have that tough love.

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: And secondly, why do you think you found yourself sort of drawn to poker players? Like when you move to Vegas, you know your roommates we’re poker players, your dad’s a poker player. There are more people in Vegas besides poker players, right?

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: Like, why did you gravitate towards them?

 

Marle: Well, I think in Vegas, frankly, I like Vegas. But there’s a lot of popped-up people in Vegas. And I honestly would say that poker players in my experience are some of the most together people in Vegas. I briefly lived with a girl, in New York City it’s very common to go on Craigslist and find roommates. So, I met this girl through Craigslist, but like, I had met her, I hung out with her. She seemed normal. And she had the thing like insane. Just like, she wasn’t in poker at all.

 

Brad: And all white female situation.

 

Marle: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just like, but no, I don’t want to get into it. But, but I’ve just found that like poker players in Las Vegas. Like they just have their shit together. They have to be, they have to be good with money. They have to go to pay their rent. They have to, if they’re not, they’ve been there, they’ve gone broke a long time ago. So,

 

Brad: Exactly. Yep.

 

Marle: Yes, it’s good.

 

Brad: Basically, in order to make it like in this world, if you can make it, if you can have a name and thrive over an extended period of time, you mostly have to have your shit together. You either have to have your shit together, you have to have like rich parents or something. I don’t know what the alternative is. But to be a grinder, like we said already, it’s very, very tough. So, this person called Josh Atkinson is helping you navigate your poker journey. What came next after, you know, he’s staking you, you’re building your bankroll, you’re moving up stakes, what was next in your progression?

 

Marle: So, there was like five or six months where I like really couldn’t win. I was running a little bit. And then I just like something like clicked in me. I had this, I had this fight with, my ex was like struggling. My ex has stakes by him as well. And he, and we’re both struggling. My ex was playing bigger 5-10, 10-20, heaps and makeup, and you couldn’t be around, you’re living at a friend’s and they’re all just like Marle, like you just have to quit, like, you know, Michael’s already in makeup. He’s playing bigger, he’s at more in earning potential. He’s already in this, like, you just started like, you’re going to have to, you can get a job or just get a job. And I was so angry that like, I was, they, except for Josh, like everybody else in the group was like, you know, just go get a job and was like, oh, you should be a poker dealer. And nothing against poker dealers. I was like, I want to do this, like, I want to be here and just kind of felt like, you know, he had been doing it for so long. And he was in makeup. It’s not my fault. Like I just started, give me a chance. And then it was literally like, a week later, I just started crushing. And it was like, it was like a switch flipped in me. And I just like, started crushing for like, two years. I just was like, boom. And I was just win, win, win and I move up, move up, move up. And it was crazy. I just because, I kept when I had moving up. And I just had this like, I just like knew that it was like an hour never. Like I have to win or Josh is like, not going to stake me. I’m not going to do this. I have one chance here. I have to make it work. And so, it just, yeah, I just, it just clicked and then I ended up breaking up my boyfriend. And of course, you know, Josh still stakes me for a little while after we broke up because, you know, of course, I was nervous about that. I was like, ah, you know, it’s my ex’s friend, will he drop me because of this. And of course, he was like no, no, no. Our professional poker relationship has nothing to do with my goalie, you know?

 

Brad: Yeah.

 

Marle: And which is like the right thing to do, obviously.

 

Brad: Of course, like if you’re a, if you’re a net positive horse, why would I cut ties with you because of some, because of personal issues? That doesn’t make sense.

 

Marle: Yeah, exactly. And it wasn’t even to do with him. So, he’s in for a while. And then I at this point, I was playing like 5-10 in Vegas. And I had this happened. I, I have a friend, Matt Berkey, who was playing in the big game, a huge 200-400 game at Aria and Ivy’s room. And I’ve known that for many years. And he was like, you know, I can get you in this game. Would you be interested in playing? Around that same time, I met the person, I don’t know a

 

Brad: Before we move forward, you said the 200-400 big game is the game that Berkey is playing in.

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: So why did Berkey think he could get you in the game versus other people? Just

 

Marle: Because I’m, I mean, because I’m a girl. Because I’m a girl. Because I had just come out with my vlogs. I just think that, that in, in those kind of environments, I think that they just kind of want some. I don’t know. I think it’s mostly because I was a girl. You know, I

 

Brad: Most likely right. In every private game or big game that I’ve played in them wanting girls to be around has been a major component to the whole situation.

 

Marle: They’re obviously fair. Galfond’s very open about she plays in the office. She’s been playing in the game for many years. Of course, Phil’s not allowed. But there is a regular, and very competent, good player as well. But like, you know, fair is very fun. She’s cute. She’s, you know, and couple of the girls that are, that are, that are great players too. And, you know, it’s not something, like I mentioned this in my podcast recently. But, you know, I always think it’s important to mention that, like, it is a net positive being a woman in poker, you know. We deal with so much shit, but like, it’s, I think we still come out ahead, because we just get more opportunities. And it’s just,

 

Brad: Yeah, especially when you have talent, right? Because it’s disruptive. It’s not something that you see every day is a talented female poker player who’s playing higher stakes. That’s fun to play with, because, you know, it’s 90% robots and hoodies who aren’t talking and take 30 seconds exactly for every single decision. So, like it’s disruptive when there is a female who’s having success. And I think that that brings in opportunities, more opportunities, and then a male who’s having the same success at the same moment, the same age, like the only difference is that they are female. It’s just, it’s a thing that happens. And also, you know, I have found in my experience, which basically is a limited sample size, I would say, compared to like your experience, because you’re always at the table with a girl, because you are a girl. But you know, the biggest regret in my career is not taking up for people when they’ve been talked down to and just really horribly mistreated. But I don’t know how prevalent it is. Because like I said, I, it’s a limited sample size. And what I’m learning through interviewing and having these discussions is that it’s not as common as maybe I once thought that it was in the poker world.

 

Marle: I think it’s a lot less common the higher stakes ago.

 

Brad: That makes sense.

 

Marle: But, but I will say that if you’re playing in a 1-3 or 2-5 game in a casino, what happens more, it’s an environment where there’s a million games in the city. You can get up and leave whenever you want, you don’t have to be here, whatever. If it happens, and I’ve seen it happen in like, the private high stakes games, you’re kind of fucked because like, you really can’t make a big deal about it. Because it’s like, in that environment, there’s no room for complaining, like, you’re lucky to be here. You know what I mean? Like,

 

Brad: That’s my problem, too, right? Like this is,

 

Marle: It’s, there’s no way to handle it.

 

Brad: It’s like, a dealer’s getting treated like absolute dogshit. And I’m invited to the game. And like, if I, if I say something like this is the thought that goes is like, where’s the line? Do I cross the line? Do I say something? I’m not going to get invited back. Like, what do I do? And ultimately, in those situations, what I did was nothing, the majority of the time. It just sat back and felt horrible as it happened, which I do consider to be a regret. I wish I would have said more. But it’s a shitty spot. It really is.

 

Marle: Yeah, initially. And like I said, it isn’t too common. And the private game that I’m talking about are good. They’re good people. And I know of some private games, that people that run the game are just scummy, and they like, slower, and they like, they do shit, like really scummy shit. And, and I don’t, I refuse to be like kind of a jerk around like that. And like, I don’t play in those games like, and like, I’m sure I could get into them. And I have friends that play them. But it’s like, I don’t want to be, I don’t know. I don’t want to be like embarrassed and like treated like shit, just, just to watch sit here and like, play 25 hands view and hopefully get run good.

 

Brad: Yeah, I mean, what’s the, it’s not worth it. And I’ll say this about 1-2 and 1-3 players just in general. In general, they’re shittier people, then like they actually you’re at the poker table than the high stakes players do. A story that always comes to mind is I had been playing the 10-20 at commerce for like a year, 60 hours a week. And I went back home. And I went to play in this silly little 1-2 game because I was dared to flirt with a dealer that I had a crush on, who later becomes my wife. And I go to that game. I’m playing and I’m not shitting you. I played for like two hours and I got berated like four times by these, like, I could not care less about the silly 1-2 game, but they are like coming at me. And it was just really funny to me. Like obviously, like I don’t care, like whatever, talk shit about a bad call or like I just don’t care but like, it was just a funny juxtaposition of going playing high stakes. Nobody ever saying a word playing small stakes, and just getting yelled at straight away, multiple times in the first few hours.

 

Marle: They’re animals, man, not all of them, but like they can be. I’ve had some bad, I’ve had some horrible experiences and low stakes, and all women have, but, you know, it is what it is.

 

Brad: It is what it is.

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: So, you start playing the big game, right? Is that what, that’s where we left off?

 

Marle: Yes, I get in to the big game. And it was, it was just coincidence, or just right. This is right after my blog came out, like four months after my blog came out. So, I was doing a lot of stuff at this point, kind of the popular, relatively quick, and I was

 

Brad: What year was this?

 

Marle: This was two years ago.

 

Brad: Wow. So pretty, pretty recent.

 

Marle: Is it? Yeah, yeah. And I was at a charity event and happened to meet a pretty well-known poker player, who I won’t name because I think whatever, and some people think who it is, but and he happened to be friends with Josh too. And he, like, we hung out with mutual friends. And it came up about like, oh, like, if you, you know, like, if you want me to, like, I was taking me basically, for big games. And he had a conversation with Josh, and I wasn’t a makeup or anything. So, Josh was like, hey, like, you know what, like, my job is done here. And I’m, and like, he kind of recommended me I think to this new guy, which is, that’s a good thing, too, is like, I feel like when you have these certain relationships, and they end well or they go well, it’s just like, it’s almost as like a reference for the rest of your poker career that you can always like, point to someone be like, hey, if you want to know how I am, I’m talking to this guy.

 

Brad: Yeah, it’s good business, right?

 

Marle: Sure.

 

Brad: Like, if he could have been shitty, because he’s losing like a profitable horse to another backer. It’s like, you know, in business, when somebody quits a company, and they like, make him gather up all his stuff, have security come in, and like escort him out just to embarrass him and be shitty. Like, that person will never come back to work for you ever, if the opportunity they’re taking falls apart, right? But like when you have this good relationship with a clean break with somebody that’s genuinely invested in you as a human and your progression. I mean, that’s just an amazing way to do business.

 

Marle: I was really lucky. I was really lucky. I mean, yeah, it was just like the right time. And I think, and Josh himself was getting into like trading and stuff and kind of moving out of poker. So even for those reasons, like, he still sticks like a few people. Now, I don’t think he does anymore. But it was just the right progression. So, this guy, so it just all happened at once that I went broke. He was like, oh, do you want to play this game? I called this guy’s like, hey, I met you at the charity event, remember, like, whatever. And he was like, I was like boba is the deal. And he was like, okay, so

 

Brad: That easy.

 

Marle: So, that was it, like, well, because we already kind of, like talked about it, and, and whatever. And yeah, I played in that game a ton. I played in that game a ton. And

 

Brad: How did you do?

 

Marle: It’s going good. It’s still going good. But, you know,

 

Brad: How did it feel, like playing those stakes? Like, what were you playing before and then moving up to the big game?

 

Marle: There’s no, there’s no, I don’t know the designing that, like, prepares you for that level. I was playing, the biggest I played was 501k. And mostly, it was 2-4, 3-6. But I would buy in for 50, 60k. So not deep, and, you know, it’s just like, like, the biggest hurdle I think to get over is just the amount of money. And I don’t think that like, anybody can just get over that hurdle. It just takes time to realize, like, the first day I lost 150k, you know. It was like taking a bullet. It’s never good. But like, you know,

 

Brad: It’s just like, effectively three buy ins, if you’re playing 2-4, so

 

Marle: One hundred big lines, you’re, I’m in deep, it’s like nothing.

 

Brad: Right.

 

Marle: And you just, it’s just crazy. But, 

 

Brad: As long as your backer knows, like, as long as they’re familiar with the swings and the expectation, I think then it just kind of is what it is. I would imagine like, as somebody that’s been that had been playing poker a lot at that time. I’m not going to say that the money doesn’t matter, like the sheer amounts of it. But like, I’ve always found that like, when I’m in the arena, and there’s a decision to be made. I just make the decision. And sometimes afterwards, I’m like, looking at the pot and I’m like, holy fuck, that was a big pot. But it’s not like I’m like, oh, I’m you know, but to shove a new car into the middle here. It’s just like there’s a decision, you make it, and then maybe afterwards you’re like, oh my god, that was actually kind of, that was kind of a pivotal plot, win, win or lose.

 

Marle: It’s, anybody who tells you I think that, that, that they can think about it in terms of big blinds, especially in the beginning is lying. It, even, I thought I played this game was this past January, and I just played a pot so fucking standard. Someone opened under the gun. I fly ace king under the gun one. Someone else calls, big blind squeezes, and I rip 100 big blinds.

 

Brad: Yep.

 

Marle: And, whatever. He calls his aces, and I was letting, and I get stacked. And I’m just and, I was like, obviously the most standard hand ever, you would never have been having a 2-5 game where you lost 500 bucks.

 

Brad: You just reload instantly.

 

Marle: You would never think twice about it, right? But like, I was like, because I hadn’t played the game and a few months, and I was at my first time back, and I was like, fuck. Like, I’ve texted people about and I really like, what are you talking about? Like, you’re insane. Why are you even like sending me this hand? And you just can’t not think about it. It’s tough.

 

Brad: It is. Has it gotten easier over?

 

Marle: It’s certainly gotten easier. It’s gotten way easier. But, ways here. But, but, but I will say the good thing about it is that like now, sometimes I’ll play like 50 or there’s an anti-game I love with the bike. It’s a 5-5-50 by big blind anti-game, which is a huge game. But like, once you’ve played 2-4, 3-6, nothing else feels big. Like, and I think that like, that’s kind of always a hurdle when you’re moving up the stakes is like, I don’t care how disciplined you are, and how you are just a robot and you can think about things in terms of big blinds. When you’re playing. When you jump that high. You know, there’s an adjustment period, unless, maybe unless you’re like Jungleman. You’re just like an absolute machine or something. For us mere mortals, like there’s an adjustment period of like holy shit, like this is, this is real money we’re talking about here. It isn’t too grand. And, but that’s a good thing now, whenever I play anything smaller, this is a great human Reno too, it’s like 5-5-50 game. But it doesn’t, like it, nothing like feels crazy to me now. You know, which is good.

 

Brad: It is.

 

Marle: I can forget about it and I can just think, because when you can get rid of that, when you get rid of that when the like the actual thinking about it and money, that’s when you really good at poker, because you could just zoom into like, just big blinds, whatever, you know.

 

Brad: And I’ve also found that, it can also be a little bit damaging too, when you play big and then play smaller as far as taking it the same level of seriousness. Like, I found that I can be prone, I got berated three times in the 1-2 game, not because I was playing super well. But it was, I was there for a different reason. And I just really didn’t care. But like, have you found that you’ve struggled maybe moving down to like 10-20 or 25-50 after playing super big that it’s like, whatever, I can, whatever, one buy in it is what it is.

 

Marle: Not that steak, but

 

Brad: I guess 25-50 is still pretty big.

 

Marle: Yeah, well, even, I mean, even like, so like, I think the best game in Vegas value wise, all around this game is 2-5 at the whim of general cap. It’s just always soft, you can easily make 5, 8k in a game easily. And it’s super soft. And like, it plays super deep. It’s a great room. And, you know, I play that. I would literally play that game. I’d walk in to win. I see six regs in the back battling it out at 10-20. I’d be like, hey, well, like I’m going to play this 2-5 where there’s giving out free money.

 

Brad: Right.

 

Marle: We’re like, and I will play the big game like the same, you know, two days later on a stake. But it’s like, okay, well, like, this is my own money. And, okay, like winning 5k like, would be nice for me. It’s, you know, to me, it’s real money. Like, I think if, if I start playing like, you know, 25 to 30 sent online or something, and trying to actually take that seriously, it’s really hard.

 

Brad: Yeah.

 

Marle: That’s a pretty tough game, but like, you know, live 1-2 or something with like $100. Like winning 80 bucks to me, obviously, doesn’t really mean anything.

 

Brad: Yeah, who cares?

 

Marle: So, right. So, it’s like, all about what’s relative to your life. And to me if I can actually win, or lose a substantial amount of money, which to me 5 or 8k is a substantial amount of money to me at this point in my life, you know. It would make me feel good. So, so I can take it seriously. So, I think that’s what it’s all about. But we actually had, we just had Marty Mathis on our podcast. And he’s such an animal. He was talking about, like how he accidentally registered like a $16 tournament a few days ago when he was like an all 5ks. And his friends like, dude just pumped that like, whatever get that out. You’re like and all this day Tuesdays, if I can’t have tickets, he’s so, he like doesn’t have that thing and is what he wants to find the keys so serious, every tournament, you take serious no matter what it is. He’s, he’s really one of the million because I can’t do that.

 

Brad: No. I cannot. I cannot either. That would be like yeah, I’m not I’m not investing my focus and energy on this silly little $16 tournament while playing a 5k. I will say, it’s funny that you mentioned that the players in the back are playing the bigger game like grinding it out six regs playing against each other at a higher stake. I’m going to giveaway strategy here, maybe, maybe nobody will ever listen to this. But I am not a tournament player. So, I don’t play a ton of tournaments. But I play cash. And like I said, I lived at the commerce in LA, playing cards there. I liked the commerce, I enjoyed the LA area. And one year I went to the WSOP, which I normally didn’t go to, but I went there. And I was playing the 10 and a quarter game at the Rio because I didn’t know any better. Like, I’d never go to Vegas. So, I don’t know where any of the good games are. And I’m playing the 10 and a quarter and there’s like four commerce regs that I’m playing against. I’m like, what in the fuck did I do? Like I came to Vegas to play with a bunch of commerce regs. And then like, the light bulb went off in my head. Like, if all the commerce regs are here, who’s back in LA with the people that actually have to work for a living and can’t spend the week playing the WSOP in Vegas? So, for a long time after that, it was every year, WSOP time, I’m still grinding at the commerce because the games are just exceptionally good when all the regs are out of town, right?

 

Marle: And a lot of people do that. And a lot of people that would leave Vegas and go to like, San Jose,

 

Brad: Or the Bay Area. Yeah. A lot of good games there too.

 

Marle: Yeah. And they were just, get out of town. Yeah, it’s smart you know,

 

Brad: You got to go. You got to, you know,

 

Marle: I think that

 

Brad: Why fight against the current, right?

 

Marle: That’s an AMA cash game player, first and foremost too, and I think that’s where I wasn’t chasing the value and not necessarily the like, whatever the glory, like, we don’t really care about, like, oh, I need to be at the Rio during this time. You know, I need to be seen to be or even like, I need to be playing this fucking tournament and whatever. I’ve got a little bit more like that as time goes on, because I’m, like, hungry for the scores, but, but we just want the value, I think cash game players and we don’t care where it is.

 

Brad: Yeah. I could honestly care less about me. Like the prestige of winning a bracelet is like, cool. Like, I guess it would be okay for like a trophy case or resume or whatever. But like, it doesn’t drive me, like it just doesn’t motivate me in the way that it does a lot of people. Not that there’s anything wrong with bracelet hunting, but that’s just never driven me personally. So, you started your vlog, right as you’re joining the big game?

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: So why did you start the vlog in the first place, I guess? What was the reason that you did that? And then, was it hard to continue on vlogging as you’re like, start playing the nosebleed games in Vegas?

 

Marle: It was a wild year. But yeah, it was all at once. It was very difficult. When I, I had been thinking about doing it for a year, bought a camera, the whole thing ,did a bunch of filming. And just always was like, as I’m good enough, or whatever. I’ve known Andrew Neeme for many years. He’s always very encouraging. He’s been very vocal about wanting a woman voice on the platform. And then I’ve known him for since I, the whole time live there, I’ve known him. So, he was encouraging and, but it’s just so hard to put yourself out there. It really is. And I broke up with my goal that, that boyfriend and about two months before that, and I was kind of in this like shitty space, obviously, and I was just in a really low part of my life. I was like post breakup. And I think that because I was just in this low space. I was just like, fuck, I have nothing to lose. I’m just going to do it. And so, I just did it. And it was amazing. I’m so I did it. It was, it, it literally changed my life.

 

Brad: What, what about it was so amazing?

 

Marle: I mean, I was an actor for so long. I just love, I need, I need that creative outlet. I need that release. And I can’t just be grinding all the time. And it just felt good, and it just opened doors for me. It just opened doors for me you know. I started doing commentary and obviously hosted it in a podcast, it just kind of opened doors and, and, and just kind of gave me an opportunity to, basically the poker world opened up to me and be like hey, like, why don’t you taste everything we have to offer and choose what you want to do. Or not choose, but like choose what you want to focus on. Maybe that’s what I did. I did, I did like everything that was offered to me or that you know I could and more recently I’ve tried to narrow down and look what I really enjoyed was outside what I wore myself then just going nuts for about a year. But it was

 

Brad: It’s easy. It’s easy to do.

 

Marle: And I’m looking, like I’m, I’m so lucky to have been able to do that. But yeah, and then especially, I did not win in the beginning in the big game and I was just a general like, it’s just so hard. Poker can’t be your side thing. You know, it’s so hard to be in any kind of other major thing whether you’re a big-time commentator, you’re a big-time podcaster, you’re big time whatever host, and then you’re crushing elite player. It’s so fucking hard. It can’t, it needs to take up all your fucking headspace you know.

 

Brad: It does. It’s, it’s very easy to get worn thin.

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: I know from personal experience that like when it comes to coaching players, when it comes to releasing two podcasts a week, making YouTube videos, writing sales copy, creating courses for them to learn. At what point is there the time for me to 100% take care of myself so that I’m in a position to be successful playing higher stakes poker online, right? Because if I’m going to play higher stakes poker online, I’m dropping everything. I don’t have 10 balls in the air, because I need to be taking care of my body, I need to be taking care of my mind, I need to eat the right stuff, I need to make sure that my sleep is on point every single day. And we only have so much energy, in us, that it’s really hard to do all of these things at once. But I was feeling bad about myself the other day. And somebody on Twitter recommended like the ADHD, the hashtag ADHD and I clicked it and I saw like the first one was like Leonardo da Vinci wrote like 14,000 pages in his journal, never published anything, never finished, the Mona Lisa, like he had all of these projects that were never completed. And like all of his contemporaries thought he was like a flake, right? And he died believing that he was a failure. And I like read that story. And I was like, okay, I guess I don’t need to be so hard on myself. I do actually release some stuff. And I do get some, some things out there. But like, putting yourself out there, being vulnerable, especially in a public space is so hard, because the trolls of YouTube, the pieces of shit on Twitter will do anything they can to try to knock you down. And I don’t know why human beings want to do that to each other. But like, if you’re vulnerable, and especially being a female poker personality in this world, like people are going to come at you. And that’s just, it’s just going to happen, I think.

 

Marle: Of course. And again, like, I get asked this a lot. And I say, you know, whatever I brought on myself when you come out and you make, when you I am very blunt with how I speak and I’m very obviously I made this vlog post and I make a mistake. But I made those vlogs because, you know, when Josh was staking me, when this current person is staking me like, I’ve always heard, you know, oh, she must be fucking him or like, whatever. And he was my ex’s best friend, it was like, we’re friends. And the guy’s staking me now, same thing. And it’s like, you know, I kind of was sick of hearing that and but that image is I decided to just like, make fun of it. But when you come out and you say those controversial things, the trolls are going to come at you even harder.

 

Brad: That bull. It’s bullshit. Like,

 

Marle: I mean, again, like, well, I, you know, I’ve dealt with a lot of this recently, and, and I will say this, anybody who like isn’t out there, putting themselves out there in some way, I don’t even, I don’t even listen to. Because it’s like, you just think you’re going to sit on the sidelines and hide behind your keyboard and, and I can’t watch any of your work. I can’t watch any of your stuff. And, and the way you’re being vulnerable, and then give you the same critique, but you can do it to me, that’s how it works. It has to be a two-way street. You know what I mean? You have to be at least, you can’t just have to do if you’re going to sit there in silence and complain about me, that I’m just going to ignore you and block you. Like you’re out of my

 

Brad: It’s, I can’t remember the book. But basically, I was reading about vulnerability in a book and, and

 

Marle: Was it Renee Brown?

 

Brad: Huh?

 

Marle: Was it Renee Brown?

 

Brad: No, it wasn’t Renee Brown. It was, I believe how to in the stories that ruin your life. And it was about this guy who’s a teacher. And he’s teaching these people and like something broke down for him. He had like a real problem on his hands. And like he had been teaching them for like six months or a year, being there every single day. And like, he had a moment of vulnerability, when he, the people he was teaching realize that he doesn’t have his shit together, like all the time, right? And the feedback that he got from that, they were so relieved. They were like, oh my god, you’re a human, you know, you’re not a robot, like I feel so much better about myself. It makes you more relatable, right? And he said something that’s always stuck with me. And that’s being, we look at being vulnerable as a very, you know, precarious position to be. Because people can judge us, they can come at us, but really being vulnerable, is the strongest position we can take. Because when we’re vulnerable and we when we put everything out there, we don’t have to have fear of being discovered. We don’t have to have fear of somebody unearthing some skeletons in our closet, right, because people just know. And so, all the people that just sit back and snipe with stuff that they perceive to be out of alignment with their values, or just whatever it is, like you’re being fucking weak, you need to look in the mirror and realize that you’re not perfect and nobody’s perfect. And we have to start forgiving each other. Like, we can’t just, you know, there’s the whole Ryan Laplante thing, you know, that just happened and people are not forgiving Ryan Laplante because he has not forgiven people, right? Like, historically. And I like Ryan Laplante. I think he’s, I, all my experiences with him have been positive, right? As a human being. But you can’t ask for forgiveness from people when you’re unwilling to forgive people yourself. And like, the reality is, nobody’s fucking perfect. We all make these mistakes. So, like, we just, you know, just chill out, right? Like just practicing forgiveness.

 

Marle: Yeah, it’s this too. You’re absolutely right. And then the other side of it is when you do fuck up, which I did think Ryan handled really well, it’s like, come up with a sincere apology, make it right, and then like, let’s move on from it. And, and some people, some people don’t do the apology part. And I think that that’s on them. And, and people can’t admit when they fuck up or they can’t admit when they misstep. And that’s not okay, either. But, you, I, it’s just, yeah, it is just such a, I don’t know, it’s so, again, I just feel like if you’re not out there in some way, putting yourselves out there and subjecting yourself to criticism. You don’t get to have an opinion about me. Because like, you don’t know, you don’t, because I’m not here like, like, showing myself to you, like who I am as a person. And, and I’m just leaving myself open to be attacked and you know what. It’s not fair.

 

Brad: It’s not. It’s not. The one thing though, the one fear that I do have about Ryan is like, him forgiving himself. Like, I really hope that he’s able to forgive himself, because he said that, you know, what he said and how he acted will stay with him forever. And I think that, like we also need to practice self-forgiveness on ourselves. So that we can, you know, move past it and keep doing good things and keep doing good work and keep helping to improve people’s lives and you know, whatever pursuit you’re undertaking.

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: It is, but, okay, let’s sort of change gears. Your vlog. You recently released a video on your vlog, maybe yesterday, was it yesterday?

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: About the seriousness which maybe, maybe I watched it right before we had this conversation. And it like planted a seed in my mind. But can you tell me about you know, why, why you wanted to make that piece specifically?

 

Marle: It’s, it’s just making fun of the poker community in general regs, and how serious, basically how serious we take each other. And, you know, we all see poker Twitter, and every other day it is, or every single day, there’s a new drama, I bet like, oh, this person or oh, oh, we did change this tournament structure. And oh, this is a problem with this site. And this is the problem with this. And like 95% of the community are recreational fun players, and they were not even on their radar, man. Like they’re just out there freaking having a good time. And I really wanting to like just like, make this funny thing to be like, hey, like, and myself included. We’re out here fucking arguing on Twitter after like idiots fucking trying to pick apart everything wrong with this industry our shit, and, and the people that we that like that make the most of the industry don’t even fucking notice us. So, we’re stupid. You know what I mean?

 

Brad: Sure.

 

Marle: I mean,

 

Brad: Oh, I’m so guilty of investing energy, like trying to tweet at platforms when things go bad. Like, because I do feel like winning poker players are taken advantage of on these platforms. And we really had no recourse because of lack of regulation. And that’s why people go to Joey Ingram and like, hey, solve this issue for me Joey Ingram because he can put social pressure on promotions to like do something right. Otherwise, they’re probably just not going to do something. And what I’ve realized is it’s just such a dumb battle to fight because nothing’s going to change. My, my opinion of them is not going to move or make any sort of impact on how they do business. And so, me getting angry and investing energy into it is just such a foolish waste of time. And I’m also so guilty, guilty lately of spinning so much time on poker Twitter, just reading through all the the opinions of the opinions of the opinions, and then like having an opinion myself, and I’m like, why am I in this loop? Like I want to, I aspire to be more like Nick Howard, who will just delete Twitter from his phone, disappear for a month, and then say something controversial and just delete the app again, and not get sucked into the vortex. Right.

 

Marle: That’s the best. I mean, obviously there are some smart people in that community. Mike McDonald comes to mind, you know some others that that are freaking legitimately smart people. And you know, I was it’s just a joke video, but, but like, yeah, it’s just like, and again, I like to help someone like pads will come out, Patrick Leonard, and you know talk about forming unions and the problems with the sites and he’s such a smart guy. And you know, I’m not saying we shouldn’t have those conversations. I’m just saying like, once in a while, can we look at ourselves here and realize that like, we’re idiots. Like, we’re over here fucking, screaming at each other on fucking Twitter. And meanwhile, most of our fucking community who we need to survive, by the way, and frankly, the sites don’t give a fuck about us. Like, they don’t need us. We’re just leeches on their fucking bottom line. So, we’re idiots so we can laugh at ourselves.

 

Brad: I remember, I think there was a thread with Doug Polk and somebody else who were just like sniping back and forth about the Negronian star situation. And like, what’s funny is they were overall agreeing with each other. Like they agreed with the exact same sentiment, but they were like viciously battling each other. And I like retweeted, I’ve never seen so, I’ve never seen people just so viciously agree with one another before. Like, why? Why is it? Why is everything, it just feels so serious all the time? And poker should be fun at the end of the day. Like, that’s why I started playing cards, because I enjoyed it. And it was fun. And I don’t show up at a live table and try to make the game less fun, right? We show up to try to make it an enjoyable experience for everybody involved so that other people come back. And yeah, who knows poker Twitter is just like a black hole,

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: I need to extract myself from it. I don’t know that it’s bringing me much value in my life.

 

Marle: There’s anything else about Twitter, too. I mean, I’ve, I’ve talked about this little bit on my podcast, but I really try to make a point whenever there’s a disagreement, agreement with me with someone on Twitter, I always message them or call them if I had their number or text. Because it’s like, you know, so much it’s fucking lost in translation. So much is lost in just the lack of communication

 

Brad: Tone.

 

Marle: Yeah. And so like, you know, instead of, like, I used to just get mad and be like, oh, fuck this person, and then just man like, block or like, like, bury deep inside. Or whatever. And like, that was it. But now if it’s someone reasonable, obviously, if it’s just some random idiot from Nebraska, who just hates me, fuck him, but

 

Brad: What’s wrong with Nebraskans?

 

Marle: From anywhere. But yeah, I’ve had someone in poker, who has mutual friends or whatever. I will always message them and be like, yo, man, like, sorry, like, can we just chat? I am, because there’s a misunderstanding here. So, I think that that’s really important. And it’s really fucking hard to do that. It’s so much fucking easier to just say that I am that person or whatever.

 

Brad: I mean

 

Marle: If you, if you fucking talk to them for five minutes, not on Twitter, you probably would like empathize them a little bit.

 

Brad: For sure. And I think that’s, that’s missing is are these private dialogues about our differences? And at the end of the day, guess what? It’s fucking okay to have differences. Like, it’s okay to have different opinions. We don’t need to, everybody have the same opinion about everything. Like why are, why are we the more morality beliefs, especially in the poker community? That’s like, you need to believe this. And if you don’t, then you’re a scumbag and I hate you. Period. It’s just kind of silly to me.

 

Marle: Yeah. We’re just like confrontations. shitty, it just is. It’s shitty. And it’s hard. After some poker, but in life, it’s hard to face your problems head on. It’s, I’m guilty of, I hate doing it, you know, and just hold a grudge or just be like, fuck that person and write them off. It’s so much harder to just face them head on and be like, hey, can we hash this out? Like, and I try to do that more often than not so

 

Brad: Yeah, it’s, it’s a sign of strength. And we have a negativity bias just as human beings, right? Like, I notice it as a coach where I release a thing that like 20 people participate, and then one person gives negative feedback. And what do I do? I do on the one person who gave me negative feedback and not on the 19 who are singing my praises from the heavens, right? I just do on this one verse. And I’m like, what did I do to you to make you hate my shit when everybody else thought it was awesome, right? I think that’s just kind of how we’re hardwired as humans.

 

Marle: Yeah, and I think to that, I would say for myself, when I try to do is because sometimes, like, sometimes if you do step out of line, or I do say I or anybody else has something that’s out of line, or I make some content that’s not funny or stupid. Like how I, like how I do things, is I have a few people in my life that I like trust their opinion, whether it’s Braggy, my dad, have some close friends, that like if they’re telling me, hey, like you’re out of line, which they always will. Then I fucking know that I’m out of line, but like, I, outside of that close circle of trust are people that I really revere and think highly of, you know, I’m just going to go with my fucking gut. I’m just going to do what I think is right.

 

Brad: Yeah, it’s like getting feedback on poker, right? Some people you trust that think of very, very high level, and 98% of the people are like, no, I don’t fucking, I don’t care about your opinion, because I just don’t trust it. I don’t care about it. It’s just, everybody’s fallible. Like we all, everyone is fallible at the end of the day.

 

Marle: Yeah, it’s, it’s hard. And you know, a creative process is so hard. It’s so fucking hard to every time I put out a video or a podcast, or I do, when I host a try and like, I, it’s just, it’s so hard for me to get the courage to like, put myself out there again, against the firing squad. And if, if you just let the, those negative voices get you, I would never go to bed. I need to just say fuck you. Because otherwise I’ve never got out of bed.

 

Brad: There’s a book called, Do the Work, by Steven Pressfield that resonates with me. It’s like a very short book. And it’s just about resistance. And it’s like, you always, when you press publish, you face so much resistance. Everything in your body is like, oh, I don’t want to like, should I do this? I don’t think, I don’t want to do this. Maybe it’s not good enough. Maybe people are going to hate me. Like, you just always feel this resistance before you do anything. And it’s not appreciated as much by people who don’t, aren’t putting themselves out there constantly. But look at Leonardo da Vinci right, going back to that, how hard was it for him to press publish, and to create a thing that he puts out there? You know, that he felt that resistance and this like, major, major way and it sort of dictated how he, you know, did his work throughout his life?

 

Marle: Yeah. It’s so hard. It’s so hard. And yeah, it doesn’t get easier.

 

Brad: No, it never does. No matter what. You can remove everybody from your life and go to Mars, and make a video on Mars, and turn the computer off directly as you press publish so that you never know anybody’s opinion. But you’re going to fucking struggle to press that publish button. It’s just going to happen 100%.

 

Brad: You’ve heard me talk early and often about how improving your awareness while you’re playing cards so that you make better decisions in the moment and notice trouble spots that merit deeper consideration is one of the most valuable things you can do to make more money on the felt. In my conversation with the only four time WPT main event champion ever, Darren Elias, he told me that his ability to shut out all of the distractions in the world and fully focus on making great decision after great decision is his superpower he most attributes to his success. And you cannot improve your awareness at the tables without being fully present. When you learn how to stay fully in the moment on the green felt, you can finally have a clear path to becoming the absolute best version of yourself. Which leads me to Jason Sue. Jason is one of the foremost authorities on the planet when it comes to playing poker with presence. As a matter of fact, he even wrote the book on it. Here’s a direct quote from Nick Howard at poker detox on Jason’s ability to help you stay focused, quote, Jason’s work is a new paradigm in poker and performance, end quote. And these aren’t just empty words. Nick has put his money where his mouth is by hiring Jason to coach up the poker detox crew. And as a loyal listener of chasing poker greatness, you know, by now that I would not be promoting anything I didn’t 100% believe would improve your poker skills and your life. So, if you want to master your emotions and perform at your peak with presence while doing battle in the arena, you’d be doing yourself a grave disservice if you didn’t check out Jason’s work at pokerwithpresence.com. One final time, that’s pokerwithpresence.com.

 

Brad: So, let’s move into the lightning round. Thus far, I’ve only asked one question on my, on my list.

 

Marle: Oh, bother.

 

Brad: No. This is, no, this is me. It’s, I go down these tangents and I never know where they end up. But what would you say is the most unexpected thing to come from your poker journey?

 

Marle: Just freedom, and a world, a world of uncertainty, especially with COVID you know. It’s just, I never like anticipated the freedom that poker could give me and, and, you know, it’s amazing.

 

Brad: It is. I did anticipate the freedom. That was why I got into poker. I wanted the freedom, right? You had more experience because your dad was in poker.

 

Marle: Yup,

 

Brad: You were immersed in that world. I just had like this idea of it before I jumped in. Speaking of your dad, how does he feel now that you know you’re a successful poker player?

 

Marle: Oh, he’s, he’s very supportive. I’m lucky a lot of people, obviously you hear like, their parents hated it for so long or whatever. But obviously, from day one, he totally understands it and supports it. You know, he does have times, you know, even today will be like, you know, you could do anything. You know, you could be a lawyer, you could be a doctor, you could be doing anything and why you want to sit in a casino? Because, you know, he just wants the best for me and whatever, but

 

Brad: A dad who sat in the casino though?

 

Marle: Exactly, exactly, but, but like, do you even have, like, he’ll say, like, he’s, he’s an amazing musician. And he’s, he plays pianos and playing his whole life in different bands and whatever. And he’ll always told me, she was like, you know, like, there’s been so many times where, like, I didn’t work harder on my music, because I was busy walking off and grinding or whatever, and, and it kind of, and it kind of can rob you of his artistic things. Because even me with the videos, like I actually get so much more out of making a great video or doing something creatively, even my podcast, like, I, it’s so much more rewarding to me than just grinding a Sunday, or Sunday or, or even having a big score. And for some reason, poker, it always pulls me back. Because whether it’s fine, fine and financially, like, I still like most of my money from playing poker. I still, you know, I’m still very much a grinder. And it’s kind of this like, thing that just keeps pulling you back, pulls you back.

 

Brad: Yeah, it’s, once it gets its hooks in and once you have that skill to make a lot of money relatively quickly, and you realize,

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: At least I realized, like, oh, it’s hard for me. Nobody’s going to pay me 100 bucks an hour for my skill set in the real world. So, like, the option is, you know, just play more cards, right?

 

Marle: Or you make something poker related that you probably enjoy, like this podcast or whatever. It’s like, I don’t make shit for my YouTube channel. I don’t make shit, I make, I get paid for my book, my podcast, but it’s not, come on, it’s not like amazing. My poker money.

 

Brad: Exactly. Yep.

 

Marle: Even things I enjoy. It’s like, okay, well, even if I wanted to just be like, okay, I’m going to become a full time YouTuber. It’s like, I’m not going to making any kind of money for at least a couple years.

 

Brad: Yeah, it’s, it’s hard. And what I’ve realized is like, if I sit back and wait for somebody to just give me a dump truck load of money, so that I can, you know, fully pursue interviewing poker players for this podcast, it’s never going to happen, nobody’s going to give me that money. Sites, platforms are not investing money into content creation. So, like, if I’m going to do it, then I have to create courses. I have to create products. I have to do shit, get coaching, charge more, like you have to really take it upon yourself to make, to make it happen, because nobody’s just going to hand you the money. And about the content in general, like, I’ll be honest, I don’t love promotion. I do not love making a show page. I don’t love writing an intro, or the description. I love this. This is what I love most about the process, just these conversations that I get to have with awesome people. Like, we’ll stop recording, and then I’ll just feel this rush of dopamine. And that’s great to me. I really love this part of the process. But all the other stuff. And yeah, the money, it’s not very good.

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: It could be better. But yeah, it’s I love having these conversations. I always feel like I learned so much from everybody. Like you said, everybody in the poker world has, you know, everybody that I’ve interviewed is intelligent, well-spoken, makes me think about maybe things that I haven’t thought about before. And there’s just massive value in that. I did have a question kind of off the cuff. A lot of my listeners, I know this is going to be shocking to you, but my demographic is about 96% male. What advice you have for dads, like I’m a dad, I’m a father of two young girls. What advice would you have for dads who are raising their kids and maybe are professional poker players or in the world of poker to you know, do, do a better job, I guess is the outcome.

 

Marle: I don’t know. It’s so hard because you have freedom but she don’t, like when games are good. You have to play kind of even though you don’t really have a schedule.

 

Brad: Yep.

 

Marle: But I don’t know. I guess like I, I always appreciated that my dad kind of leveled with me and was open and honest with me about what he did and how it was and stuff. And I think maybe some kids can’t handle, can handle that. And they, that would freak them out. But I think that it just kind of lets them understand that they can really do anything they want to do. Like, this isn’t and I think as we move to the next generation here, we’re going to start seeing college, even the traditional path of college getting phased out but more and people are going to start taking these, there’s going to be no playbook for succeeding. And so, just showing them that like, hey, I’m doing this thing because I love it. And it’s not traditional, but, but like, you know, I take it seriously. And this is what I do. And I think that kids see that and they and they, like even me, like I even though I would didn’t plan, like I saw him taking his in risks in life. And he went, he just went when he saw something, he just went for it. And I went, you know, I moved to New York City when I was 18. And I was modeling, I was acting, I was doing all these crazy things, very high variance things. And I think, because I saw him taking risks, and even though he failed sometimes, it’s like, that’s show them that.

 

Brad: If you never fail, you’re not taking enough risks.

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: Or like, that’s just the reality. Because if you’re taking a risk by nature, there is a large percentage that fail. So, if you’re never failing at anything, you’re just not risking enough.

 

Marle: Totally. Totally. Yeah.

 

Brad: What’s your process look like for regularly improving your poker game?

 

Marle: I mark hands. And I run them, and run them in PIO and stuff. And then I watch a lot of one on one stuff. But a concept never really like, hits home for me until I’m able to apply it consciously, mark the hands, and then ask somebody if I’ve applied it correctly. That’s when I really grow.

 

Brad: So, it’s kinesthetic?

 

Marle: Yeah, well, like, I can’t maybe, I can’t just watch an over betting river value. Sorry, over betting video I run at once or something. And then implementing I don’t think anybody can just implement it perfectly, or whatever. So, it’s like, people, there’s so many poker players too that, I’m sure you know a lot of these that like, they’re so, they talk the talk and you talk with them. And they’re so smart. And they know all of the right things to say. And they really like say all the right things, and they talk the way through hands. But then you play with them. And it’s like, where did that go?

 

Brad: Yeah.

 

Marle: Like

 

Brad: What happened?

 

Marle: What happened? And I don’t know, I just think that like, because, because, they spent I think that’s because, they spent all this time studying. They like rally Sims. They fucking run all these hands, they talk about hands. They’re watching all these videos on fucking YouTube or run at once, or whatever it is. But then they never, and then okay, I know, I know it now like, and they think that they know it. But you have to then, the real learning process is then like trying to apply it. That’s the fucking hard part in my experience. So that is what I really like, cement that I know. I, like, something poker.

 

Brad: Yeah, there’s a lot of monkey see, monkey do as well, where it’s like, oh, I see somebody over betting the river here. And now we, then you think that, yeah, I understand it. So, then you do it and you miss apply it and then you get smashed. Because I think what’s missing from like a lot of narration videos, explaining thought processes and going deep like that, I’ve made this mistake many times myself now that I’m like, trying to get more granular and try to think of like a progression of things that you need to know. Some of the decisions that I make, I needed to know like 17 different concepts before I even get to this spot, so that I can make the right decision. And you can’t just watch a video, see somebody do something and say, oh, I just check raise certain withdrawals against aggressive players and think, yeah, that’s the strategy. Like that’s the takeaway. No, there’s a lot of things you have to understand before that decision even came up. And a lot of them, especially if you’re, you know, narrating, our mouths or filters for what the brain is thinking. We don’t always even say all of the things that we’re taking into consideration because you just can’t verbalize them all. So, it’s like poker training and learning poker is really hard. And to, to the people who sound intelligent, this is like a problem that plagues like two plus two, and message boards in general, are these folks that sound smart, that everybody agrees with, but really don’t know shit, and they’re just speaking out of their ass, and are bringing everybody down with them who misapply what they’re saying. Like, it’s just, they’re these people that can sound super intelligent, but then when you put them in the arena, they fall completely apart. And you realize, oh, I was listening to this dude. That is not even close to a winning poker player.

 

Marle: Because that’s the first step. You know, the first step is being able to watch your video and think, okay, I understand why he’s saying that. That makes sense to me. But like, in game, there’s a million factors that, that determine whether you’re making that play. And so, if you aren’t good at calibrating, which factors to over, to overrule or to like lean on and, and that leads you to making this play, like you really don’t know, that’s the fucking talent. That’s what’s hard. That’s, that’s really what’s, what it is. And so, you know, a lot of people, I was told a lot when I was superstar playing like, you know, 80% study, 20% play, but I really don’t, I really don’t think that anymore. I think that it’s 50-50, or maybe even a little bit more playing, maybe even fucking 60-40 play, 70-30? Because

 

Brad: It’s just,

 

Marle: Yeah,

 

Brad: Go ahead,

 

Marle: Go ahead. You might have you have all these concepts and you’ve, you’ve, you’ve watched, you’ve run all these sins, and you can see what pile looks like. And you can even predict what pile will say but like, who cares if you sit down and you shoot yourself and you can’t apply it. It is 

 

Brad: You can’t really, like this is the big misnomer. And some of that said a lot of damage to the poker world is just assuming you can even apply P in real life and assuming that it’s valuable to even apply it if you could as a human being. Because all the times in my life that I’ve thought on the river, like, I don’t really want to bluff here, because I feel like this guy is just going to snap me off. And then I say, well, I have the perfect hand and I need to be balanced, so I need to bluff. And then I do it and he snaps me off. And every time I think you are such a fucking idiot, like now you get to tell your friends, hey, I did, I played the hand this way. And at least I’m balanced, right? Like, I lost a shitload of money. But now I can lay my head on my pillow at night and realize that I was balanced in this part of my range in this specific spot. And at some point, it’s just like, no, like, just, you can’t implement PIO. Many things are not binary decisions. And you just do the best you have navigating in a world of unknowns. Like anybody that wants all the variables to know all the variables before they sit down at a table, to be able to make perfect decisions, is going to fail. So many decisions are unknowns, like we don’t know where. We make some assumptions that may be true, they may not be true, but we’ll never know. And just embracing that unknown is just, it’s a foundational piece of what to me, makes a great poker player. Somebody that says, I don’t know, like I’m confused. I don’t know which, what the right play is here. Like, I have so much respect for that person who can then maybe investigate and have curiosity to learn, than the person that just has all the answers. No. If you have all the answers, I don’t want to associate with you in the poker world, because you’re full of shit.

 

Marle: Totally. And, and, and not being afraid to look stupid. I remember asking Josh stupid questions like, why do I see that? I remember, like, I remember when I, when he explained me, like turning equity was like, good cards to bluff on because then you can get there someday. Like, I remember when he told me that, it was like, like, I had to fucking like ask the question. Like, I asked so many fucking stupid questions. I was never afraid to look dumb. And I think that, you know, that’s it, that’s, that’s, be, like being free to look dumb is, is not a bad thing. You know I mean,

 

Brad: Absolutely not. I tell my students, like if you have a dumb question, just ask it because we learn. Like that’s how we learn and grow. When we ask a question that we’re unsure of. I can give feedback, right? Like when we do our coaching sessions, I make them record a video,

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: Explain their thought process of why they’re doing everything they’re doing. You can look at a database, a hand history review, look at a hand that’s played in your opinion perfectly. But it’s done for all the wrong reasons, right? And then that’s not valuable, like that, that player is still going to suffer if we don’t address those issues. So even knowing like the why behind people are doing what they’re doing is valuable from a coaching perspective.

 

Marle: Well, yeah, and to that point, I wanted this thing to is like, I have never done any mental game coaching. And I’ve been thinking about it, because like, a lot of it too, like, isn’t even, even is, even about understanding theory. Sometimes you’re in a game and you have to I have to ask myself, am I doing this because it makes more chips or because I want to flex that I know this spot? Or I know this is a good bluff combo, and I can’t help myself because I have the bluff combo, even though like this guy’s never fucking ever, ever folding or like this is a $4 tournament, or whatever. Am I, or am I just talking tilted? Am I just frustrated? Like, genuinely ask yourself, like, why are you fucking doing this? And I guarantee you sometimes it’s not because you genuinely think it’s making more chips. It’s just because whatever, you know, and so

 

Brad: We’re emotional creatures, like and our emotions are so much more powerful than our logical and rational thought. And this is another thing that’s like taken out of the equation when it comes to playing poker is like, yeah, we’re not logical. We’re not rational all the time. We’re fucking human beings. This is part of our nature. So, I think yeah,

 

Marle: I just want to say that I think that also, that is something that I learned too, is like, the most elite best players don’t actually do things that much different than good players. They’re just more consistent. They just, like people like sometimes think like, I have to make these big adjustments to my game to like, take it to the next level. Like you really don’t. They’re just like never, they’re just never punting. They’re just so consistently like, they’re like fucking robots. And they just make more good decisions than you.

 

Brad: I’m not, I’m going to make, this might be controversial, but I don’t even think they’re robots. I just think they manage their emotions much better than a typical human, right.

 

Marle: Not negatively.

 

Brad: Yeah, no, no. I mean, like, I think like the, the thought is that we’re just like, shut down and we’re just, you know, making a good decision after good decision. But like, like you said, the mental game work. We all need mental game work. This is what I’ve learned by hanging out with high level poker players is that we all struggle in the mental game, we struggle with managing our emotions, and those guys like a Phil, Phil Galfon, for instance, is not a robot. He took a break time off during the challenge. So, you can see he’s not a robot. He was being affected emotionally. It’s just he deals with it much better than his contemporaries. And that’s the difference. It’s not that he doesn’t feel the emotions. He just deals with them in a much healthier and better way than his competition. So yeah, I think, get some mental game coaching. This is always like,

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: I think the, my, my advice for all the things is basically just try something and like, if it’s horrible, and you hate it, then just don’t ever do it again, right?

 

Marle: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely think I want to at least look into it, for sure.

 

Brad: Elliott’s expensive.

 

Marle: Yeah. But he, we’ve had him on the pod. He’s great. And in this, you know, this, there’s so many options and like waste, who doubt I mean, I thought about getting into just like general therapy, again, to just for my own mental health. But, but maybe just like a sports psychologist more better now.

 

Brad: For sure. 

 

Marle: Exploring it.

 

Brad: Cool. Go for it. few more questions. I know. You look like you’re struggling with the heat in your house. I’m also struggling very much right now, too. When you think about joy, in your career playing cards, what’s the first memory that comes to mind?

 

Marle: I don’t know. I think, I think like just that, like, that first month, I was profitable. Like when I was just like, oh, wow, I like, when I first settled up with Josh and I like handed him money. And I was just like, oh, good. Yummy.

 

Brad: Sure. Especially like, when the feedback that you’ve been given was that you should take a break and go be a waitress to make money, or whatever. I’m sure that was very gratifying.

 

Marle: Yeah. Just, just stuff like that. I mean, but frankly, nothing, nothing compares to like the vlog and the creative stuff I’ve done because, like, I’ve had to, like, I mean, I’ve had to grow as a person at in poker as well. Like, I’ve really had to grow as a person by putting out stuff that’s like, personal and like special to me, part of me. So that’s what I’m way more proud of.

 

Brad: I believe that because you continue doing the vlog and like we said, it’s not for the money.

 

Marle: No.

 

Brad: So, it has to be for another internal reason, right?

 

Marle: Yeah, even the podcast like I try, it was very difficult for me. I did. I hosted two try ins and like, I thought it was really, really easy. I just would come in and oh, we just like, shoot the shit on break. And oh, hey, and you’re like Caxton, like, how’s it going? Whatever, how easy. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. My podcast, it was so hard in the beginning for me, like, I, it’s really hard for me to interview people, because I’m fine if I just facilitate my own shit, like, if I’m responsible for myself, and I suck and whatever. But it’s like, facilitating somebody, trying to like, paint them in the best light and like, show their best self. That gives me so much anxiety. And I’ve just been forced to do it. And it’s like, forced me to grow. You know what I mean?

 

Brad: For sure.

 

Marle: Do it.

 

Brad: Yeah. The host doesn’t get the, you know, it’s not about us, right. It’s like, you’re my guest on my show. My job is to help facilitate you sharing your story and make you look good. And if I do a bad job, it is 100% my fault. And I feel like absolute shit as soon as I stop recording, and I’m like, man, I just didn’t serve my guests in the best possible way that I could. So yeah, there’s, there’s a ton of that pressure that comes with this gig and it can be tough. It really can.

 

Marle: Yeah, for sure.

 

Brad: When you think about pain in your poker career, what’s the first memory that comes to mind?

 

Marle: That’s so much easier. Just like so many, so many nights in the beginning. It wasn’t even when I was playing full time. But when I was waiting tables, I was living on like a block off the strip, and Elgin Meridian, it’s a well-known apartment complex in Vegas. And I would play all night, lose all my money and then go to work. And I know sleep so many nights, like, just grind. So, I went to my last 6k in the pit just spewing. And you know, I’ve had some fucking bad nights in the pit early on in Vegas, just just going mental. And again, like, it’s stupid and like, we think that everybody who’s in Vegas has gone through some kind of leak and then once you do, it really burns and like again, it was like, my own money and like, whatever but like, like losing all your money. Why play at Bally’s? I’d walk home at like six in the morning, broke. And I have to be at work at eight. It’s just like, hate my life, you know what I mean? This sucks. You know, I have to go like bust my ass for like 200 bucks or less. And yeah, I did that so many times, so many times in the beginning.

 

Brad: I believe it. It’s such a common, such a common pitfall, especially for young people. And like, I had a slot machine issue early on in my career, where it’s just easy to get the dopamine hit. You just, you get action all the time. We don’t need to wait until we flop a set to get all the money in, like we’re just continually getting action and got burn. Again, pretty early on for like 5k. And then I kind of realized like, oh, this does not feel good. I’m going to stay away from the slot machines. And luckily, I just, now I just stay away. I can’t even, I don’t even want to get near anything for any trivial or even small amount. I’m like, just keep me away because my nature is to just press. And that is a horrible, horrible thing to do while you’re in the pit.

 

Marle: Yeah, there’s so many things, hookers, strippers, like there’s some drinking, drugs, so many people, you know I mean. It’s just like, there’s so many life leaks.

 

Brad: And all it takes is one.

 

Marle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just go crazy. One night, sports weddings a big one too, like, luckily, I’ve never been to that. But, and again, it’s just like, it’s just, when you’re a poker player, you have to, something wrong with going through that. I don’t think it’s maybe even necessary. You just need to snap out of it. You need to have a hard pep talk and be like, hey, I’m, I’m doing something really tough. I’m responsible for my own self. I need to be an adult here, you know, and whatever. And, and frankly, like, it’s and, you know, I have some hacks that I’ve done too. Like, now when I get in that mode, I’ll even say like, okay, like, I’ll go play some drunk one too, because at least I’m fucking profitable, you know, at least like I’m drunk playing 1-2 like, and I lose 500 bucks. Whatever. I’m making money and it’s like, when you stay in the Paris Putin sports or you get a hooker or you whatever, five fucking Naipaul or whatever, it’s just that you can it’s always about. You’re never coming out ahead. At least if you screw up poker. It’s like, whatever, you know.

 

Brad: Yeah. Just buy into a small stakes tournament and just drink and fuck around. Right like the downside. The downside is very small, very small downside.

 

Marle: Yeah.

 

Brad: If you could gift all poker players one book, what would it be and why? Doesn’t even have to be a book on Poker.

 

Marle: I’m not a big reader.

 

Brad: Okay.

 

Marle: And why do you

 

Brad: Piece of content then?

 

Marle: Piece of content. I’m into like a few YouTubers. I’m really into Andrew Schultz right now. He’s a comedian, makes YouTube videos. Gus Hansen or Gus Hansen. Gus Johnson. I love comedian. I need to. I love Liza Koshi and David Dobrik. I love a lot of YouTubers. Comedians, very funny, very witty. And I’m actually surprised he bought me a book on Andy Kaufman, which I’m reading right now, which is like a little, you know, biography. And yeah, I mean, I just I like to kind of just, I just watch stuff that like inspires me.

 

Brad: Documentaries? Any good documentaries?

 

Marle: Documentaries? Oh, well. Well, me and Sprague even really into Louie Through lately, watching a lot of his old stuff, you know, Louie Through?

 

Brad: I don’t.

 

Marle: It’s a British documentary. I had never heard of them until about a month ago, but he’s been around forever. And he’s done a ton of stuff. You know, you know, a lot of stuff with in America like butt race and like, a phobia and like crazy. He did one on like prostitution in Las Vegas. And he’s in, his stuff is really good. So, I’ve been really enjoying doing that.

 

Brad: Nice. That’s all we’re always looking for more documentaries to watch instead of Silicon Valley for the fifth time. What’s the project you’re working on this near and dear to your heart?

 

Marle: Project that I’m working on? I mean, I’d be lying if I’m saying, if I said I was actively working on it, but my biggest goal in poker has always been to write a like sitcom about poker. Like for mainstream TV.

 

Brad: Really? Why, why a sitcom?

 

Marle: Because I just always, I mean, I’m always going to take like a humorous view of poker. It’s, I’m never going to be serious and set my voice. So, it’s just funny to me. Some things that happen in poker that I seen, I’m like, this is insane. And just funny, like, even the Twitter stuff. I was like, I look at that and I laugh. I’m like, how, like, even me as I do something, and I, I can’t help but laugh myself like, oh, look at me. I’m just an idiot over here like arguing with fucking Dan O’Brien or fucking Matt Lanzer, whoever it may be on Twitter, like about make structures. It’s stupid. Um, and so yeah, I think that would be like my biggest dream project, but no example ever come to fruition.

 

Brad: I think there’s space for it. I mean, the league exists, and it’s fantasy football, and it’s great. So why not? Why not the league for poker?

 

Marle: Yeah, I have to think of like, even like Big Bang Theory. It’s like kind of scientists, nerds, like a bunch of like, grinder nerds. But like, the problem is like, with science, and everybody understands it, you know, whereas poker, there’s like this gap of knowledge, you have to explain to people

 

Brad: What’s your niche.

 

Marle: Yeah. Niche. And basically, the league is niche. You know,

 

Brad: But lots of people love football, though. And lots of people, lots more people love fantasy football, I think than poker.

 

Marle: For sure. I think that, and even if they don’t, you can explain what it is in literally five minutes to anybody. Poker is a little bit like, it’s a real money, like, what is it? Like, how much you lose? It takes, takes a while. So, I would even love to do like, I would love for someone to come in and like sponsor, like a really well produced version on my blog just for YouTube, and be able to do some like really like nice budgeted like, comedy videos on YouTube. And that would be great. And so

 

Brad: Yeah. I mean, why not? Like, there’s obviously a space for vlogging on YouTube, like Brad Owen has just gone to the moon, right. There’s a big appetite for that. So, I think the opportunity is probably there. All right. It’s been great having you on the show. And the final, final question is where can the chasing poker greatest audience find you on the worldwide web?

 

Marle: Marle Poker on YouTube, and Marls TV on Twitch. Marle Cordeiro on Twitter, Marley.Cordeiro on Instagram. And I have a podcast on run at once called The Rake on YouTube. So yeah, that’s it.

 

Brad: Check out the podcast, The Rake and all the other things that will be on the show page for you to click through. Thank you very much for your time. Let’s do this again once the world comes back to normal and we both have air conditioning for the love of God.

 

Marle: Yeah, Jesus.

 

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Chasing Poker Greatness. If you have yet to subscribe to the show, please take a second to do so on Apple podcast or wherever your favorite place to listen to podcasts may be. For more content from me, Coach Brad, please visit our YouTube channel at youtube.com/enhanceyouredge and I’ll see you next time.