Andrew “Luckychewy” Lichtenberger: Everything Is a Miracle

Brad: What is happening my friend? This is your host Brad Wilson, the founder of enhanceyouredge.com and today’s guest on chasing poker greatness is one of the goats and a man I’ve looked up to for many, many years, Andrew “LuckyChewy” Lichtenberger. Andrew has racked up over $10 million in live MTT winnings, as well as being one of the foremost crushers in any form or setting of the poker world he decides to dive into. Just a few of his MTT career highlights include five WSOP final tables, including a bracelet victory in 2016 for 569k, winning the $100,000 High Roller Alfa aid in Las Vegas for $1.7 million in 2014. And a second-place finish in the 50k WSOP High Roller for 917k just last year in 2019. Chewy and I’s conversation leads us down the path of his ongoing love for the game of poker, using intangible intuition when you’re on the green felt, separating your biases from your intuition, which can be very, very tricky, and what Chewy believes to be true about our lives. Today, you’ll learn how Chewy goes about integrating his intuition with tactical analysis at the poker table, how to build awareness of your quote unquote Spidey sense, so that you can more trust your gut. our opinions on why poker players tend to play much longer sessions when losing despite all conventional wisdom telling us to do otherwise, and much, much more. So, without any further ado, I am honored to bring to you, not only one of the greatest poker players of all time, but also a genuinely amazing, amazing human being, Andrew “LuckyChewy” Lichtenberger.

Brad: Andrew, how you doing sir?

Andrew: I’m doing very well. I’m enjoying my quarantine as much as I can.

Brad: I can’t wait for all these quarantine podcasts to release like right in a row. It’s just going to be like 50 podcasts all recorded in quarantine released like six months in advance.

Andrew: Yeah, hopefully, right? It’s a sign of people doing the right thing.

Brad: I hope so. I hope so. It’s, it’s a mess. And I think diving deeply into it is not going to, not beneficial for me. Probably not the audience either, I think at this point, because it’s so, it’s so pervasive, right?

Andrew: With what’s going on.

Brad: Yeah, I mean, not, not that I couldn’t, you know, I, I’m more restraining myself because I could obviously just talk and talk and talk. And the name of the podcast is chasing poker greatness. And I want to start it out with you specifically, asking you, you know, greatness is an abstract word. What does greatness mean to you?

Andrew: In this context, I associate greatness quite a bit with the idea of like excellence or, or mastery, where you work consistently at a particular scale in order to, I guess, evolve your skill set as it pertains to that. And yeah, continue to improve and get to that place where, you know, there’s, I guess, there’s always more to learn new ways to see things. But yeah, just to, just to continually improve, really, and, I guess have that, that mentality of always wanting to learn and being hungry and being open to new ideas, and so on.

Brad: As related to poker in you, what do you do on a regular basis to improve to go about that quest for excellence?

Andrew: I mean, I’ve watched a lot of poker. So, like any like high roller streams out there, like the bike type stuff, I still play quite a bit. Even if I’m not playing. I’m not watching like a stream. I’ll just open tables on a site and just watch them. I’m pretty much always just looking to absorb data and kind of see how people are approaching situations and yeah, just, just always just always open to see what’s going on.

Brad: So, it’s a regular, even still, after all this time a regular immersion to poker, you just open tables and watch what’s going on.

Andrew: Yeah. Pretty much.

Brad: What are some things that you’ve learned, like recently, if you care to share about just watching people play? Because I think it’s a very underrated aspect of poker in that lots of people kind of fold their hand and then check out of reality in life and go on their phone, or whatever it is, but just paying attention, when you don’t have anything invested.

Andrew: Oh, it’s hard to pinpoint anything off the top of my head that I’ve learned recently, from just watching. I guess I did see a hand the other day with a guy play with a couple of hands actually, just like especially aggressive ones he took where you can tell from playing with someone like that, that they’re capable of such things. But I guess just seeing it firsthand, and having any sort of doubt removed, if they’re willing to pull certain bluffs look like that is helpful.

Brad: And you’re one of the people that I most respect when it comes to the, when it comes to the intuitive or like the quote, unquote, feel nature of the game, which to me is an aspect of poker that’s always been very near and dear to my heart specifically, and it gets a negative connotation, I think, or people use it as like a negative, which is like, kind of silly to me. But I interviewed Katie Stone a few weeks back. She came on the pod and she gave a hand history, where you know, she raised under the gun with kings. Flat. Flat. Flop was jack ace deuce. Check. She gets led into. She raised the small blind, pretty quickly rips, right? And I asked her in the hand like, how did you feel, right? Like, like, we break it down, technically. And then I asked her like snap judgment. How did you, how did you feel when they ripped? And she said, I felt horrible. Like I felt totally horrible. And then she, she went on to say that she doesn’t always trust this feeling. And what was interesting about this afterwards were, was we were talking on Twitter, and she sent me a picture, because it was at a final table. So, somebody took a picture of her in the moment when the dude ripped, and you can see the angst like her whole, you can just, you can almost feel the angst in her body. She ended up calling the guy, had a set of eights and she busted out. But like, why do you think poker players specifically, even though they feel this angst? This intuitive feeling that in a spot like this, they don’t trust it? And instead do what they think is the, I guess the technically or the technically the correct play or the safe play?

Andrew: Well, I mean, the obvious answer, I guess, is that the feeling is a little bit less quantifiable, at least as we currently approach it. And the theoretical basis will never really lead you astray in the long term. So, while there’s room for, for manipulating the I guess the default play based on those more intangible variables, it is, you do run the risk of, of making errors based on that. And that’s something I’ve always struggled with as well. Actually, I wouldn’t even prefer to use the term struggle, but it’s something I’ve been challenged by, where sometimes I’m sure I’ve made like very, very poor decisions as a result of sort of acquainting myself with these more intangible aspects of the game. Nevertheless, I also believe that it’s a part of it. And I guess I just seek to sort of find the right way to integrate it, while not letting it run away with the show, because I think they both sort of, they balance each other. How do you go about doing that? Well, when I’m playing, I’m always thinking, first and foremost about the theory. And then I only let sort of the more intangible feel-based stuff come into play as, as it becomes relevant. So, I’m not, I’m not going there first. But sometimes it’ll occur to me that like, oh, like, something’s off about this spot, like, I should check behind here where it’s like a default bet. Or I should make like this little frequency check raise, or, you know, I should stuck this hand off or I shouldn’t so on. Yeah, kind of just like, I let it come to me. I think that’s, at least from my experience, the healthiest way to do it. I think if you’re always trying to check in with it. It’s like your, your gas tank is going to run dry pretty quick. Because it’s like, it’s like, hey, you have seven, three off the middle position, like, just let this one go.

Brad: Right, I think in her spot specifically, it’s like, you know, his final table spot where giant swing in one direction, right? So, like a very pivotal hand where the fortune of the tournament hinges sort of on this. this decision. I think, I guess I’ll start like, so I’ve been hanging around Nick Howard this last week, and they’re all about mass database analysis and quantifying, trying to try and to the best of their ability to quantify everything. And also, in poker, like there is this intuitive nature, right? There is an intuition that we use, and it’s just where do you think this intuition comes from in the first place? I guess we can start there.

Andrew: I mean, my personal belief, not probably a widely held belief, I guess it depends who you ask, is that it comes from somewhere outside of us called the collective consciousness, for lack of a better term, where, you know, we’re, I think our minds are sort of connected to this, this larger, this larger mind, and called the hive mind, I guess. And we’re able to receive data from that hive mind. And we don’t really know exactly like, how we get it, why we get it, when we get it. But there’s, there’s some sort of impulse there, that I think becomes evident at various times. At least for those that that choose to look into it, and then maybe start to uncover a little bit of what surrounds that topic.

Brad: Why do you believe that?

Andrew: I guess, it’s just experiential. Experiences I’ve had, you know, both playing poker and you know, even experiences not playing poker.

Brad: Can you describe one?

Andrew: Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess I could describe any sort of poker scenario where I felt I had an intuitive impulse. But I guess it is probably more helpful to describe the way in which it happens. Like often there’s a physiological component associated with it. But it can be tricky to figure out what exactly is going on. So, like, say, like, in Katie’s example, she said, she, she looked like she was feeling a lot of anger. And she, she felt terrible. I’ve had that happen, where I’m like, okay, I’ve concluded that this is outside the normal range of emotional experiences that accompany me playing a poker hand. Nevertheless, I now have to determine whether or not this means that proceeding in the way in which I ordinarily would is a good idea, or a bad idea. Because sometimes you might just have whatever bias towards proceeding in a sort of natural way. And so far, as theory would dictate, if maybe the last couple times you were in that spot, you lost, and you have some sort of desire to deviate from that. I think that’s where a lot of what, what the Howard’s sort of recommend, is very helpful, where it’s just like, hey, you know, you might, you might just be wrong.

Brad: Right. It, it, it might not be an intuitive signal from your gut, as you say, in your blog, it could just be an emotional response and emotional bias based on a previous similar spot that caused you some sort of pain or suffering, where you’re just avoiding it. You’re making up a reason to avoid emotion.

Andrew: Yeah, I definitely think that happens. I think that happens to everyone, to some degree, maybe the best of the best are able to just completely block that out of their, their minds. And that’s what makes them that. But yeah, I for sure think that everybody deals with that in some capacity.

Brad: Sure. And I think you can even feel it sometimes, like I can feel it as I go through my sessions, and I’m making decisions and like, I think humans are tricked by randomness a lot, where we’re horrible. Humans are just bad at being random in general. And it manifests in poker where like, say you’ve raised five hands in a row, right? Like you just you’re raising, raising, raising then the sixth hand, you get a profitable spot where you should raise or maybe it’s like, marginally profitable, and I pass it up, because I’ve raised like five times in a row. I think this is like a bias manifesting in my play where it’s like, I just don’t feel like I should raise it now. Like, but it’s just based on pure feeling, right? There’s no, you know, there’s no theoretical reason behind it. But like, I guess what I’m really trying to aim at is like differentiating these feelings, like navigating the awareness of a bias versus something that is actually real, like an actual intuitive response based on, you know, the subconscious mind. Like, how do you, how do you even navigate these waters? How does someone gain the awareness to even go about navigating? Because like, like with Nick Howard and their crew, it’s almost as if just ignore the intuition, right? Like

Andrew: Yeah.

Brad: I hate, I hate putting it in those terms. But really,

Andrew: And I think like, for some people, at least, towards the beginning of one’s career, that’s not necessarily the worst idea. Because I do think that like, you have to learn the theory if you want to be a successful poker player. So, if you’re trying to balance those two things up front, it might just not work. Nevertheless, I think like, you kind of hit the nail on the head, like, you have to have the awareness of it first and foremost. And once you have the awareness of Tom thing that pertains to this idea, whatever that means to you, you can start to sort of sift through the feelings that you get while whilst you’re playing. And see what those sorts of mean to you and how they relate to what’s going on and, and look to form any sort of link based on patterns that emerge?

Brad: How do you go about building this awareness in the first place?

Andrew: I mean, I guess like meditation type practices are helpful, because you can get in touch with how you’re feeling and what you’re feeling. But I don’t, I don’t know. I guess it’s, it’s probably different for everyone. So, it’s, it’s hard for me to say anything to assertively or definitively, but I don’t know, like when I’m playing, I’m pretty aware of how I’m feeling. I think it also helps a lot with like, tilt control type things. Like sometimes, you know, if you’re just getting smashed, you can just acknowledge, like, okay, I’m probably playing like my Wii game right now, because I’m just not in the right state of mind. Whereas if you’re the one doing the smashing, you’re like, okay, I’m playing like my A plus game. Like there’s, there’s sort of nothing holding me back right now. I’m not overthinking things. I’m just letting it flow. I think it’s in some ways, an extension of that. It’s just like, acknowledging how, how you’re, how you’re feeling, how your emotional state is fluctuating, what sort of impulses you’re getting, etc.

Brad: Right. So, gaining awareness of awareness is the first step. Gaining awareness that there is a wit awareness that is needed in these high, high emotional spots. And you know, just even thinking about how you feel in any given moment. And sifting through that I think is very important for folks playing poker versus like, just flying by the seat of your pants almost

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Brad: You mentioned flow state, like you mentioned, your A plus game, playing in a state of flow. And I know that this is something that’s near and dear to your heart. How do you go about entering flow state more often in poker?

Andrew: I think it’s one of those things where you can’t so much try to do it. There’s no like trying. It’s either you’re doing it or you’re not. And I think a lot of that just comes from, just sort of letting go. Like, it sounds a little bit cliché, but I think that’s usually what works for me. Yeah, and it can be different on different days. Sometimes it feels like, okay, I have to be like making decisions a little bit more quickly. And sometimes I feel like, okay, I should probably slow down a little bit. But I think it speaks a bit to like, I guess honoring the way that you feel, because its sort of linked the two things. Like I know, there’s a chess master, Igor Protrusion was his name. And he was very revered for like, you know, just being a phenomenal tactician and defender, and so on. And he had said that, on the morning of big events, he would just like, kind of meditate in his room before the game, and try to figure out if he was going to play like a more aggressive opening, or a more sort of like, compact system where he would just sort of wait for his opponent. And I’ve never really heard any other chess masters speak in similar terms, but I thought that was pretty cool. And I guess in poker, you know, there’s, there’s ways to sort of take from that in a practical sort of strategic sense. But I think more generally, just the idea of just kind of figuring out where you’re at, on any given day is kind of helpful. And I think that that, I guess introspection lends itself towards the ability to find a flow state more easily.

Brad: Is that from the Art of Learning, by Josh Wade?

Andrew: Yes.

Brad: Like, I’m pretty sure I read

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, that’s what I read.

Brad: Yeah, I remember that specifically because I thought I related to that, like, I think that in poker, some days, you’re more agro. Some days, you have more energy, some days, you have less energy and sort of just accepting that and leaning into it. I’ve found, I found effectively over my poker career, that leaning into any emotion that I have is always better than fighting against it

Andrew: As long as you believe in one.

Brad: Well, right, as long as it’s not just like pure monkey tiller, right? But here’s something that I’ve been thinking about a lot, and my listeners are going to get sick of it, because I’m going to talk about it with multiple guests in a row. But I wanted to talk about it with you specifically, because I thought you might have some good insight. And I could be totally wrong about my theory. And I think, I think that for some people, it could be very dangerous thought. However, I’ve noticed in my poker career, that I’ve always been a high intensity player. So high intensity, I can go for two- or three-hours max. And then I need to rejuvenate in some way, like I need to get away and come back. And like, I just know this about myself as a human being. However, if I lose, if I lose like three or four buy ins, like relatively in quick succession, I found over and over and over again, that I’m able to play longer. I have more focus, I have more energy. And this goes against pretty much everything that I’ve ever read in any poker book, as far as lengthening a session when you’re losing. I’ve just found that for me, personally, I do have extra energy, I do have extra focus. And it feels beneficial to lean into that versus fighting against it and feeling bad for playing longer when I get these extra bursts of energy, but I would love to know your thoughts on this specifically. It’s just, it’s a pattern that I’ve seen poker players fall into, since the beginning of time, they play longer when they’re losing over and over and over again, despite all logic, despite all like, you know, logical thought and conventional wisdom.

Andrew: It’s really funny that you mentioned this, actually, because I was just chatting with a friend last night. And he’s like, how you doing? I’m like, I’m on a bit of a downswing. And, like, how you doing? He’s like, I’m kind of crushing lately. And we were talking about how we felt about everything going on in the world. And he has a bit of anxiety, and I don’t really, and I was thinking like, okay, you know, this is just like two random data points. But then I was thinking like, no, while I’m in the middle of a session, I actually can relate to what you’re talking about to some degree. And I was trying to figure out, like, you know, why, why does this exist? Like, when things are going well, why do we want to like pull back and sort of rest on our laurels? And where things aren’t, why do we want to push on and stretch forward? And I guess, like, some of his perseverance, and you know, just like, probably, some people exist, who are like, a lot more risk averse than you and I wear when they’re winning, they want to keep playing. And, you know, I’m sure we both had our moments where, you know, we don’t have this, but you know, it does resonate with me. And the thing I concluded, just in a very brief sort of moment of quantification is that we’re so used to things just flipping like, you know, we know in, in poker from having the logs, enough hours, that nothing lasts forever. So, if you’re winning eventually you’re going to start losing, if you’re losing, eventually you’re going to start winning. And obviously, we’re all in it to win. So, when we’re winning, we know eventually the loss is coming when the wind is coming. So that’s all I got as far as that goes. But it does seem possible that we just know eventually, like the tides are going to turn. We’re doing our best to deal with that reality.

Brad: Prevent the inevitable shoe dropping, that where we get crushed, and then just keep playing our way out until, you know, the other foot drops and we start winning. I think that does make a lot of sense. Just logically and emotionally. I thought about it too, that like, in a moment of high stress, I think that humans can gain some clarity, where, you know, you’re, you feel like you’re aware you’re walking down the street and then somebody pushes you down. You have some sort of physical altercation like you’re going to be more focused in that moment, you’re going to have more energy. So, when there’s pushback against you, I think, human nature might be to push back and you gain, gain energy based on maybe it’s just a natural human response. I’m not sure. But I know that in saying this, I’m not advocating anybody to just play for 48 hours straight when they’re losing it on tilt. But for, for the seasoned veterans out there that feel bad when they play longer and they’re losing, I think it’s not something you should feel bad for. I think you should lean into it and kind of be grateful for the extra energy.

Andrew: Yeah, I think a lot of that is true. It’s really just how you approach those, those losing sessions while you’re in the midst of it. And, yeah, I mean, if you’re tilting, like a horse, it’s not going to work. But if you’re, if you’re playing well, you’re not letting the losses affect your decision making then yeah, I mean, by all means.

Brad: Right. Again, it’s having awareness as to whether you’re tilting, or whether you’re using the energy in a positive way. Okay, so there’s a quote from, from your blog that I want to read back to you and as, ask your thoughts. You said, although I can only speak for myself, I feel its something which is somewhat pervasive amongst humans is that we like some degree of routine, but don’t like when consistency turns to monotony. I’ve worked to combat this by employing routine in a way that’s healthy, but allowing myself the freedom to sway from a rigid approach if it feels right. And, to me this, as a poker player, this is, this obviously resonates very well, and I’m sure it resonates with tons of poker players, where, you know, consistency turns to monotony. How do you go about this? Like, what has worked for you, in chain altering your routine?

Andrew: Well, I probably, I mean, I probably lean more on the side of like, not having much of a routine of like, general things like, you know, when, when life is, quote, unquote, normal, like, you know, I’ll get up in the morning, I’ll, you know, catch some sun, do some meditation, go to the gym, get some food, and then you can probably start playing on most days. But yeah, I guess the reason I wrote that is because I know that mice, I know that the unstructured nature of professional poker player’s life can lead to chaos, like trying to employ sort of thumb killers to live by is helpful. But nevertheless, I also know that when I try to adhere to that routine, too, too rigidly, it just like loses it’s, anything that made it valuable. Just like sort of lessons over time it seems. Like after a certain amount of days of doing the same thing, I just wanted to do something different. I’ve noticed this, especially as it pertains to, like my sleep schedule. If I’m going to sleep at like a consistent time for two or three weeks, it seems like almost inevitably, they’ll be one day, when for whatever reason, I’m just not tired. And I just like stay up all night and just completely ruin it. And I used to like kind of, you know, get down on myself, because it’s like, well, I was, you know, quote, unquote, doing so well. And now I’ve destroyed all my hard work. But I think it’s, it’s just a natural, natural impulse that I don’t really fight anymore. I’m just like, okay, that’s just the way that I deal with these things. And I would rather like, you know, mess it all up, so to speak and start from scratch, then continue on with it. And maybe that will change and maybe it won’t, and maybe it’s like a learned behavior, and maybe it’s just part of who I am. I don’t really know.

Brad: It’s so funny that you say that because I just, a few hours ago got finished speaking with Anton Wigg, and he told me a story where somebody, you all were playing poker together. Somebody asked a question of like, what is, what’s your biggest regret over the last three months? And like people are giving their reasons and he said, Chewy sat there for about three minutes and said, I know what I got. I have mine. I stayed up really late. I stayed up really late and slept till 3PM a few weeks ago.

Andrew: Yeah, no, I remember that. There’s not too long ago that we had that. That interaction at the table. I mean, it feels really stupid when you do it because then like, okay, you wake up and like, you know, obviously you’re not going to sleep at the time. You were a couple of days ago on that day because I woke up at three and you missed a lot of the sun and it is what it is. This would have this.

Brad: It is what it is. Yeah, it’s just I think again, you know, instead of, I think human, humans just in general, at least in my life experience, whenever, instead of leaning into the negative connotation with these things, the negative feeling of breaking a habit, the negative, just all the negative feedback that you can give yourself just sort of accepting it as, okay, biologically, I wasn’t sleepy, I stayed awake all night, and it just happened. And now, maybe this is just my normal, right? Like, trying to quantify everything, like, something that I see people do all the time is like, you know, you need six hours of sleep. Like if you’re sleeping more than six hours, like, you’re lazy, you’re a lazy person, right? And I know me, I need nine hours, period. Like, that’s my optimal amount of sleep. And if people take to heart this feedback, this heuristic of like, oh, if I sleep more than six hours, I’m lazy, and yet they feel miserable and are operating as at a lower level. This is just bad, right? Like,

Andrew: Yeah, it’s interesting thinking about it, and hearing the reflection in this conversation, because I do, you know, try to hold myself accountable for the behaviors that I have and the lifestyle I live. But nevertheless, like you, you really never do know quite what is to come. And, you know, maybe, maybe that happens. And then you catch a really good game, and you’re, you know, prepared to be up late the next day. Like there are unforeseen benefits that come with this. And I think, you know, living a lifestyle that doesn’t really have scheduling built into it, outside of podcasting, is you have to kind of be open to whatever comes your way and just, yeah, allow it to be what it is.

Brad: Isn’t it interesting that we can go back in our lives on some of the moments where we suffered the most look back on them as something that we needed in that moment that is beneficial to us in the future, and yet still suffer in the moment? Like when life throws us a curveball, right?

Andrew: Yeah, interesting that things can work that way. But I guess it’s, it’s great that they can because it’s like transmutation almost.

Brad: Tell me what do you mean, go dive further than that.

Andrew: Just that you reframe the way that something feels or how you relate to it, as time goes on. And I think like, especially this is true with, like, I’ve noticed this where they say you’re at the height of an upswing, and then okay, you start losing a bit, and it feels so unusual. Because you’ve, you know, it’s, it’s contrast to what you’ve been experiencing. So, you lose a couple pounds, the next day, you lose a few more, and the next day, you lose a few more. And it’s like, you start to almost become numb to the losing, because now that’s like kind of your, your new normal, in some sense. And something that was previously, like so jarring because of the contrast is now exacerbated in terms of, you know, the practical effect that it has on your bankroll and just like the, the amount of losing is more so. But it actually feels less so. I just think that’s, that’s a really interesting way that experiences sort of work in, in tandem with emotions and the timeline we exist on.

Brad: Yeah, it’s, it’s funny that you say that. Because I, I have to, I have to always notice who my brain is lying to me or like, have to be introspective when I’m, I have these thoughts. But when I’m on an upswing, there’s common thoughts that come to me. And number one, when I, when I talk to guys. I talked to guys, and they’re on an upswing, and I hear the feedback from what they’re saying. And it makes me recognize when I’m believing a story, in my own mind. And one of the stories that I always hear and that I’m always telling myself on an upswing is, I’m not even getting that luck. Like I’m not even running. I’m not even running that good, right? Like, I can’t even really imagine losing, losing next month like, but it’s weird how the brain just tricks us over and over and over. 

Andrew: Yeah. And I think that’s the reason that like, intuition gets a bad rap is because most people aren’t being realistic enough with themselves. You know, say for the people that just don’t believe in the idea that, but most people just aren’t being honest enough to like parse through the data, because a lot of it is, you know, it’s fairly subtle. It’s not like a very overt thing.

Brad: It is. And tell me, do you have any stories about when you just you went with your intuition completely against poker theory? And well, whatever the results?

Andrew: Yes, definitely many of, of those I had one, one that comes to mind in particular. And like, you know, to, not to discount what I just said, because like, the results were in my favor here. And you never know how things pan out. But it probably does, like reinforce this sort of, I guess, ability to follow through on stuff like this, but it wasn’t even like a very major spot. And there’s probably like, you know, some theoretical arguments to approach a situation like this, but it was a super high roller, or high roller someone had opened under the gun, probably were seven or eight handed. And I was in low jack seat, probably maybe high jack, I can’t exactly recall. And opener had like 16 or 17 blinds, and I had queen jack suited. It’s like, you know, kind of a default, and to flat with, but something about the moment. And there was like a waitress near who was like, talking and like, kind of the whole situation was just too overwhelming. And I just felt like, for whatever reason, like this was not the hand to play. And it’s just not theoretically justified. Like, there’s no reason that that and like, I’ve dealt with people, you know, talking and you know, poker rooms can be loud. And there just wasn’t, there was no, there’s no concrete evidence to justify folding this hand preflop. But nevertheless, I did. And who knows what would have happened, just impossible to really say. But that’s just what comes to mind.

Brad: So, not even a conclusion to the hand that nobody did never got a, did it even go to a flop?

Andrew: I don’t think so. I think everyone just folded to the open.

Brad: So, you can’t even get any quantifiable feedback as to what was going on?

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Brad: I want to talk to you about energy because I know that you’re a big proponent of energy. Right. And I think that again, going back to your blog, something you wrote about, you know, the electromagnetic brain, auras, sensing things from our fellow human beings in a live setting is something that I’ve always trusted as, as a poker player. Because and again, like there could be bias there could be distortion, it feels right. In the moment it feels right even though maybe it’s not quantifiable. What are your thoughts just in general on energy at the poker table?

Andrew: I mean, I definitely think yeah, like you can, you can sort of get a sense for how other people feel, particularly as, as hands develop. And on future streets, like, people who aren’t composed tend to show it more as the pot grows in size, and the decisions have more relevance. So, I think there’s just like sort of the nature of your, you know, you’re sitting in close proximity to somebody, and, you know, their, their behavior may give it away, called a towel, or, you know, just general behavior that that shows through on the way that people are acting. But I do think there are, there are definitely more subtle things going on, where, particularly as it pertains to, like significant others, like, you can get a pretty good sense of how someone that you’re very close to is feeling without them voicing any sort of concern or elation, or any sort of emotion along the spectrum. And I think like, you know, that that same ability is not lost at the poker table, it’s just experienced in a slightly different way. And I think a lot of it has to do with, like, sort of just matching someone’s call to frequency or like their, their level of consciousness and sort of being on the same wavelength as them. I think there’s a lot to be said for the sort of determining where they’re at, either in their mind, what they’re thinking, or just like, where they’re at in the range, like trying to deduce, you know, based on their actions, if they’re towards the top or towards the bottom. I guess, saying, based on their actions is sort of disingenuous in this sense. But yeah, just sort of how they’re approaching situation.

Brad: I would say, it’d be, I think selling your short tea to think that you don’t afterwards, after having awareness of these spots, where your gut, your intuition tells you to go one way, one direction or the other. I assume that you do, after the fact, reflect and try to break down or quantify maybe what was going on? Especially if you get some data, right?

Andrew: Yeah.

Brad: Is it an act of pride thats

Andrew: I think it’s pretty important to always be open to like, hey, maybe, maybe you made the wrong decision. I think without that, none of us probably would ever have gotten better at poker in the first place. Like you have to always be open to honest self-examination. And yeah, just to the possibility that you made the wrong choice, and have been making the wrong choice, and will continue to unless you self-correct.

Brad: Yes, this is definitely a commonality that, one of the commonalities I found among poker players is this almost obsessive introspection, question asking, picking apart every single thought, every single decision as to why did I do this? Is this right? Is this correct? And it’s a trap that I find less experienced poker players falling into. They believe they do something with 100% certainty, when there’s just no chance that that degree of certainty is obtainable. And by not questioning, by not having introspection, they know they fail to grow and improve over time.

Andrew: Yes, definitely. And I think it’s interesting how this sort of same idea manifests itself in the real world, where a lot of times people will assert such certainty about various real-world events or circumstances. And I’m always just like, I don’t know, I mean, maybe, but sometimes it, it makes me think, like, am I just not seeing something? But then more than likely, it’s just no, like, I’m just used to the nature of probabilities and uncertainty towards, you know, realistic outcomes. And a lot of people aren’t. They just like to latch on to whatever, in a sort of acquiesces their, their biases or, or their emotions, probably more often than not.

Brad: Yet, to generally a story that they, they, they choose to believe what is true, what do you believe is true?

Andrew: We exist. I can say that with certainty. And there’s more to life than then what we see. And everything’s a miracle.

Brad: Oh, wow. Expand on the last one a little because that one’s, that’s a big one.

Andrew: I guess, like I think, either everything’s a miracle or nothing is. Like I don’t think, I think it is binary in that sense. I don’t think there’s any, there’s any in between there. And I just prefer to see that everything’s a miracle, even if it doesn’t really make sense while it’s happening.

Brad: So, would you say that the universe is benevolent?

Andrew: Yes, definitely. I think a lot of people would probably argue against that. But I think, yeah, there’s some sort of underlying, like universal hive mind. It has intelligence and benevolence, for sure.

Brad: Yeah, I think about this a lot. As far as like, is the universe neutral? Is the universe benevolent? And benevolence always strikes me as more true. I never know if I can trust my human brain and my own biases, but just the fact that life exists. The fact that we’re here feels benevolent, versus the alternative of no life. No existence, no, nothing.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I mean, it makes sense that it would, it would feel better to be here than not. But yeah. It’s interesting, I think, even if it was neutral and indifferent, I would say that’s still more benevolent than it is malicious if you were to sort of graph it or whatever, or compare that.

Brad: Yes. Definitely don’t think it’s malevolent. I don’t know. Maybe? These are questions? Oh, yeah. Do you think so? They think that the world is just against the universe is against that?

Andrew: I mean,

Brad: I guess it makes sense.

Andrew: I, I hope that number of individuals shrinks over time. But I guess they’re, they’re free to choose to believe whatever appeases them. Yeah, I definitely think there’s some people like that.

Brad: Yeah.

Andrew: Even in Buddhism, like one of the core tenants is like life is suffering. I like a lot of Buddhist ideas. But I don’t really get that one.

Brad: Yeah. So, through the ego, the ego is the cause of all suffering, right, is that this is Eckhart Tolle, although it may that may originally be more spiritual, Buddhist beliefs. What do you think of that, like, as far as the ego how we perceive the world, the stories we tell ourselves?

Andrew: I think that makes sense. Like, it’s, it sort of speaks to the importance of not deluding yourself into believing things that will negatively impact you.

Brad: It’s really hard, letting go of identity. It’s really hard, letting go of the things that we genuinely believe to be true as human beings, without any sort of outside catalyst. And

Andrew: Yeah.

Brad: It’s just the ego, to me, feels like an evolutionary tool that makes sense of everything. And is the basis of our identity.

Andrew: Yeah, I don’t think the ego is inherently negative. I think it’s more just like a filter system. But I think it can be, and probably often has been, and spies gotten a bad rap.

Brad: Yeah, I mean, if it’s evolutionary, it’s built, you know, it’s, it’s something that is designed for human beings to be more successful and to navigate the world and to work together as a community and as a tribe. But obviously, when you exist solely through the ego, problems are going to just naturally develop and I think that, like, whenever there’s conflict amongst opinions, just with people in general, like, like you said, you know, I can, I find myself falling into the trap of being right. I’m on the right side of this, I am right. And then when I think about it a little further and analyze the ego, I think, well, this person is coming up from it through a different filter from a different place, and the story that they’re telling themselves, like who am I to say somebody’s story is wrong, and my story is right. Like, that seems arrogant, in a way to me.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is and I can also relate to having been on your side of things in the past.

Brad: Anyway, I’m taking taken as far away from, from poker. But let’s jump back in. What’s the most unexpected thing that that’s come from your poker journey?

Andrew: I mean, to be honest, it’s all kind of unexpected to some degree. Like, I mean, when I first got into it, I just really liked playing and know how many great people I would meet. I didn’t know I would do it professionally. But I would travel the world. That I would achieve success in a variety of different ways. I feel like the unexpected nature of it is kind of still evolving. But it’s all really, yeah, if I were to speak from where I was when I started,

Brad: Yeah, it’s maybe it’s just the journey through life. Everything is unexpected.

Andrew: Yeah.

Brad: When you think about joy in your career, playing cards, what’s the first memory that comes to mind?

Andrew: Probably, when I was new to playing online tournaments, I’d achieved some level of success in cash games. And I just taught how many friends of mine were doing well in tournaments and was just kind of drawn into them. And I lost for a few months, and like a decent portion of my bankroll at the time. And then I just went on a massive upswing one to see to PCA. Third an F tops continue to populate various other scores. And that sort of stretch was very joyous. Because outside of just the direct financial gain, it was also representative of the idea of like, Okay, if you’re not doing well now, but you’re playing well, you’re just setting yourself up for when the tide does turn. And you will eventually have the success like your, the seeds that you’re sowing with your decision making will eventually bloom. And that, that will be very joyous.

Brad: That’s a, that’s a great lesson. And sort of the opposite of Jeff Madsen, who I had on the show who, like his first WSOP went from a sub, you know, high four figure bankroll to the seven figures in less than a month, because of just tons of success in 2006. But then, obviously, you have to learn the inverse lesson. I’m not just going to win every single tournament that I played, right? You need that balance as poker players. And that’s, you know, that’s a greatness bomb, and a great lesson for the folks listening that along your journey, do the best you can, make great decisions, they’re seeds that will eventually manifest, if you just keep at it.

Andrew: Yeah, and I think about that a lot. Like, when I’m playing and losing, and like, particularly losing all ends, like, well, I have to contribute to my part of the statistical aspect of this game. Like, I always, I struggle sometimes. And I shouldn’t say struggle. I’m challenged sometimes by, like, knowing why I’m doing something if, if at the end, like I know, you know, I could track all my, my results and that, okay, you know, I wouldn’t X dollars per hour or per hand or whatever. But like, even something as silly as, like, generating points in an online site will sometimes, like, make me feel as if, like, okay, there’s a reason I’m like, sitting here playing outside of the money and like, you know, to that point, like, knowing that, okay, like, you know, even though I lost, he’s all and it’s like, I have to do that in order to win. Like, it’s just part of it. It’s a, the other side of the same coin just helps like with getting through tough times, I guess.

Brad: What do you make of that struggle? Like it just, especially after you’ve been doing it for so long, right? Like, how, what do you make of just have the experience itself?

Andrew: I think it just, just tests to you to do continue to persevere, like develop more mental fortitude, and just be more prepared for the inevitable variance that lies ahead.

Brad: Yeah, yeah. You have a great lens on in which to view the game that I think is, you know, like I mentioned earlier about when you’re stuck buy ins, and you have energy and you know, you can go on tilt, like just looking at things through a different lens can offer a new perspective, that sort of unlocks, current and future gains and keeps you in the in the race. Because it’s easy to get overwhelmed with emotion. It’s easy to get overwhelmed and feel like the world is going to end. As a poker player, this happens to us regularly, more regularly, and probably most human beings, I would think.

Andrew: Yeah.

Brad: So, the opposite. When you think about pain in your career, what’s the first memory that comes to mind?

Andrew: Yeah, so definitely playing high stakes heads up against mostly one opponent, but there were other people in the player pool that were also looking to play this guy. And my friend and I were splitting action. And I told this early, I briefly alluded to this anecdote on one of Jerry Ingram’s podcasts, but I probably had mid to high six figure bankroll at the time. And we lost. I was playing, I lost 300k in one night. And it was so, it was so like shocking, because I mean, just being blunt, like, I was a lot better than the people I was playing. And it’s just like, wow, like, things can just cover right? Fortunately, the very next day playing, it’s the same players, I was able to win it all back, and then some, which is crazy that I was even back in the games. But I guess to my earlier point about perseverance, like it’s a, it’s definitely helpful outside of, you know, just being a beneficial quality to have it at times will, you know, lead to the ability to capitalize on the good opportunities that you have in terms of games that you can find people you can play.

Brad: What stakes was this?

Andrew: 200/400.

Brad: So 300k is like, what is that? Eight buy ins? Something like that?

Andrew: A little bit less. Yeah, seven and a half.

Brad: Seven and a half buy ins. What did your friend, what did your friend think? What did your friend say? Like was he, was I guess he wasn’t like in the room with you. But was he sweating it, sweating it online? And

Andrew: Yeah, so it’s funny, he’s, he’s got a really unique way of approaching situations like this. And, you know, to his credit, like, it’s one of the reasons that he’s very successful and has found success in other areas of life outside of poker. But he was always very encouraging, like anytime, any sort of big loss happened and just kind of acknowledged that it was part of it, and did a much, much, much better job and continues to do a better job of dealing with swings than, than I do.

Brad: Well, that’s the, that’s the right person you want to be hooked up with, I think in a moment like that.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Brad: You don’t want to be hooked up with somebody emotionally unhinged, who sleeps through the night and wakes up and you’re like, oh, I lost 300 yesterday. Good morning.

Andrew: Yeah.

Brad: If you could gift all poker players one book to read, what would it be and why? 

Andrew: Quite possibly, The Art of Learning. That’s a really great book. It did a good job of highlighting a lot of ideas that I’ve had, but had never put into words. Yeah. He’s a really fascinating human.

Brad: It’s a great suggestion. I’m pretty sure Elliott Roe suggested that as well. I think I’ve read it. I’ve read it two or three times, but it’s been a while I need to read it again. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about poker, what would it be?

Andrew: Its just to have people be nicer to each other. Like, I know, a lot of times when people act out, they’re just upset because they’re losing or what have you. Yeah, sometimes people are just selfish or whatever. But

Brad: Don’t be dicks. Be nice, nicer at the poker table. Yeah. This, this may go hand in hand with this one. If you could erect a billboard, every poker player’s got to drive past on the way to the casino. What would it say?

Andrew: It’s hard for me to think of an answer. Because like, I guess I don’t, I think there’s a lot of helpful ideas to share within poker. But I think there’s more helpful ideas to share outside of poker as it pertains to the world around us. So, I guess just like, be positive, keep your head up. So, everything.

Brad: So what wisdom would you share the listeners of this show who are hell bent on realizing their poker dreams?

Andrew: Just that it won’t happen overnight. You know, if you’re really serious about succeeding in poker, than just keep working at it. And if you make the right decisions in terms of who you spend your time around, and you know, what games you play in, and what content you consume and how you study and how you live outside of poker and balance your life, then you’ll succeed like it’s, it’s not at all the case that it’s impossible to break through. Well, it’s more difficult now than it was 10 years ago. No, that also could change in the future. But nevertheless, it’s a, it’s very doable. It just requires a lot of hard work, or not so much hard work, but consistent work. Doesn’t have to be hard, it just has to be consistent.

Brad: And consistent in a way that moves the needle, it is important too, like you hit the nail you, you hit some great points as far as who are you consuming content from. Who are the people in your inner circle giving you feedback, all of these things matter, like you need great reps in order to improve over time as a poker player. But there’s definitely there’s, there’s obviously cases of people coming up in the poker world in the last three or four years who are 20 to 23 year old phenoms that are successful, and even on a lesser scale, guys that are, make a living that have come into the game in the last couple of years. So, like, saying, you know, I hear, don’t get in, don’t be trying to become a professional poker player, it’s too hard. And I’ve been, I’ve been guilty of this as well. Tell it saying, like, no, it’s too hard. And I do wonder if when I say this, this is a way of protecting my own ego. And that thinking that poker, I figured it out, therefore, it makes me special, therefore, other people aren’t going to be capable of figuring it out. And in some way, maybe I’m threatened. But I, I know that there’s just so much evidence that you can do it, you can make it as a poker player in this day and age, if you put in the work, and do the things you’re supposed to do and plant those seeds of growth, you know.

Andrew: Yeah, there could be an element of that of like protecting your own ego or whatever. But because you’re acknowledging it, I think it’s probably less likely that that’s actually a part of it. I mean, I think, you know, practically speaking, some people actually shouldn’t, because they don’t have the right set of skills, or they don’t really love it, and they’re just in it for the money. Like, I think you really have to love supply. Because like, here I am, you know, for many years, it’s my career, like, almost 15 years. I’m still just like, watching random playout, I mean, love for the game and the process and the experience that it entails. And not that everyone has to go to such extremes. But yeah, I think there’s, you know, some, some foundational things that have to be in place before somebody is able to do this consistently for a long period of time.

Brad: 100%. The perspective I think that I was, that I’m coming from is I’ve been playing for 16 years as well. And there’s a spectrum of my beliefs and, and who I have been as a human being. And I think that historically speaking, early on in my mid-20s, or late 20s, it was an ego protection type of thing where maybe I did interact with people who could have made it in poker, but because of my ego at the time, I wasn’t able to recognize the drive, the obsession, to do what it takes to succeed in poker and other people, that, that could have limited other folks. You know what I mean?

Andrew: That makes sense.

Brad: What’s your current big goal, as related to poker?

Andrew: A big poker goal? I don’t really know that I have any to be honest. I’ve never really been one to cling too tightly to goals. I’ve felt for some time now that like process-oriented approaches are more beneficial in terms of, you know, just practical ways to go about any given day. And any decision as it pertains to, like, you know, things that you would like to achieve. But I guess insofar as things I would like to achieve, I don’t have like specific goals. I mean, sure, yeah. I’d like to win, the more bracelets and you know, bunch of tournament success, and they’ll hold all the lobbies, and so on. But someone’s not super realistic, because I just like I’m not focused on certain things. But yeah, just like to continue to be successful, I guess and continue to improve is, is probably just my biggest goal.

Brad: And the process is just keep playing those seeds. Just keep making good decisions. And eventually, all the other stuff works itself out just by nature of the process.

Andrew: 100%

Brad: Do you have any projects you’re working on right now that are near and dear to your heart?

Andrew: Yes. I, I’m partnered in a tech company in India that created an online poker site, where we actually have software, and we’ve had it for some time now. And I obviously love poker, I wouldn’t mind you know, seeing the succeed of course. Logistically, it’s, yeah, logistically. It’s tricky because, I mean, I see what Phil has gone through with Ron at once. And I would be lying if I said I envy what it seems like he’s had to deal with, you know, with back end endeavors. Nevertheless, India is a different market. And I, I love the people that I work with over there. I trust them a lot. So, yeah, that could be cool to see it turned into something at some point.

Brad: But what’s the name of it? Can you tell me about it?

Andrew: Yes.

Brad: I actually don’t know.

Andrew: Poker Tempo is the name. We will actually have an active player pool yet. It’s just been a lot of work done on the front end and the back end of the software for a period of time. But yeah, you can, people can punch it in, download it. And there’s a, an AI that was created to just sit with people when they set a play money. So, anybody wanted to like, test out or whatever. And yeah, it’s cool. It’s pretty good software. And yeah, we’re, who, it would be neat to just like, be on the other side of things. You know, like, I’ve played so much poker, and I’ve operated no poker. So, it’d be just be an interesting experience, to sort of, you know, have such a good understanding of what the customers go through as players and what they want and what they need, and so on.

Brad: And I think that’s absolutely necessary. And something that’s typically missing from a lot of the existing platforms are executive in suits that make decisions, without having gone through the emotions, and the experience of actually being a poker player. It’s, I hate, I hate beating a dead horse. But I always go on these rants about sites that, that minimize the pros and take away more of the aspirational journey of poker and go back to like full tilt where it was, you know, the tagline is play with the pros, right? It was obviously ran by pros, obviously went horribly awry at Black Friday, however, there was something to the way they positioned themselves where they marketed themselves that was appealing to a major audience. And so, you know, minimizing the pros or trying to reduce as many pros, as you possibly can is just horrific, in my opinion.

Andrew: Yeah, a few bad eggs shouldn’t ruin a forever one. Like, there’s some bad people. I mean, all humans are bad. No, of course not.

Brad: Do you have any innovative ideas in the online poker space that you’d like to see implemented? Or that maybe you can implement with your software?

Andrew: I mean, I’ve thought a lot about this of like, how to grow the game through whether it’s viewership and broadcasts or different game types or, or anything like that. I think, honestly, like the biggest hurdle that we currently have to, you know, sort of rebuilding the poker economy, and making it look something like it was 10 years ago, it’s just the legislation. Like, those barriers that are in place that prevent people from fluidly exchanging money across various borders, is almost insurmountable, if things are to ever look like they were before. I don’t really know that, I mean, certainly some efforts can be made. And I think like, you know, parties doing a great job on live events and building their brand. And, you know, propping it up to make it look something like it once did. You know, granted, the entire ecosystem is different now. But nevertheless, I think, you know, this, until legislation changes, it’s going to be hard to kind of overcome that.

Brad: So, I only had a couple more questions. But now I have a couple more questions. What you just said, firstly, do you think it’s even possible or feasible that poker could return in the way that it once was?

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s, it’s possible, it might not be probable. And were to come back in the US, would it be the same as it once was? Definitely not. Because I mean, the game has changed so much in terms of how people relate to it, and their perspective on it, and strategy and whatnot. But it’s possible, they would look something like it was like it once did. But even then, like, it used to be that, you know, it was Italy, it was China, it was the UK, the US, Mexico, everyone’s sitting together. And I don’t know that that is, I mean, if, if we were to just like, you know, completely throw caution to the wind and the government was like, yeah, just play with whoever and all. All governments just sort of had an enlightenment moment. And, you know, we just sort of became collectively enlightened. Yeah, it’s very possible. It would look quite a bit like what it once did.

Brad: I like that. Second question, what’s the future of online poker look like, especially with the advancements in AI, in software? Do you think online poker is a sustainable thing?

Andrew: I think it can be if it’s policed. And I think, you know, part of the reason that regulating sites is somewhat important is, you know, if these unscrupulous behaviors come with the possible punishment of actual crime, it would be somewhat of a deterrent. Now, I’m sure some people would still choose to do it. Nevertheless, it would, it would be helpful in in combating and mitigating that behavior.

Brad: Yeah, like, do you, do you think using, you know, assists some sort of assistance software and gets to go to prison for, for stealing, or whatever the punishment may be.

Andrew: Why don’t you just get something on your record? Like, oh, you’re a felon, like you cheated in game? I mean, I don’t know what the equivalent is in like, a casino setting. I guess they just 86 you, and maybe they press charges. I don’t really know. I’m not familiar.

Brad: I have no idea. As far as, it would probably be a bad thing if we know exactly what happened if you got caught cheating in a casino. All right, one more question. And then we’ll, we’ll call it, we can get back to quarantining ourselves. What’s some common poker advice you hear that you completely disagree with?

Andrew: When people, when people commonly talk on streams about like, hands being underrepresented, it’s just not used well. Generally, like sometimes it is. Sometimes, like you actually have an undeveloped hand. But sometimes it’s just like, no, like, that hand is just like in the person’s range. And it’s not over underrepresented. It’s just, it’s just something that I ended up optically where I’m just like, oh, that, that just doesn’t really make that much sense right now.

Brad: Yeah, it’s represented perfectly.

Andrew: Yeah, usually, and I can understand where they’re coming from. It’s, as it pertains to, like, the upper portion of someone’s range. But then you should say like, oh, there’s higher in that range. This is what comes to mind.

Brad: Yeah, it’s like, like you flat, flat, a three bet with aces, and then they go bet, bet. And you’re like, oh, I’ve underrepresented my hand, right? Because I guess you didn’t, for bet, even though some percentage of the time you are flatting with three bets in position. So, it’s a perfectly normal part of you.

Andrew: I think that’s even the more accurate use of the term. But I don’t have a specific example unfortunately, it’s just, I’ve seen

Brad: I hear the term unblock. And that term breaks my brain. Like, I have a hand in unblocks the bluffs, which, for some reason, it’s just hard for me to wrap my mind around it, because it’s like, anyway, this is one of the things that I’ve seen or heard people use, like, oh, what about the times that you unblock something? And I mean, I’m like, so I have something that’s not relevant to anything. I just have to rags basically, okay.

Andrew: I think a lot of time on blocking is most helpful when we’re bluffing. And we want them to have like the obvious draw. A lot of times why like, keeping up with flamethrowers in certain cases is good, because you mitigated the chance of them having the straw to fold out everything.

Brad: Right. And I just think about it is like, we’re not blocking. You know, we’re not blocking the hands that we want them to have. But then when you throw unblocking into it, my mind just, just doesn’t compute for some reason. I’m in final, final question. Where can the chasing poker greatness audience find you on the world wide web?

Andrew: On Twitter, @luckychewy. I don’t post a ton of stuff because I’m just usually don’t feel compelled to. But yeah, I have a blog that I update also fairly infrequently. I create content at LearnWPT, make videos and teach seminars with them, and can’t say enough good things about them. And they’re, the whole team they have it’s just a great group of people and it’s really fun to, to teach. It just kind of like brings everything back to basics for me and yeah, just articulating ideas that I have in my mind. It really, really forces you to, to be honest with yourself about your own play and your own thoughts when you’re sharing it with others.

Brad: How often are you updating the curriculum, the things that you teach in LearnWPT?

Andrew: So, I’m not solely responsible for that, but I would say gets updated two to three times a year.

Brad: That’s, that’s good. That’s a high, that’s a high frequency.

Andrew: Yeah. And it’s not like it gets totally revamped, but like, okay, you know, we can change around these slides, add these, take this away type of thing.

Brad: Yeah, because by the nature of poker, it’s just evolutionary. It changes. So, this time ideas need to be updated. Well, thank you, my man for, for your time for your energy. I’m very grateful. I appreciate it. And let’s do this again, sometime in the near future.

Andrew: I’m grateful for you having me. Thank you very much.

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