DGAF: High Stakes Cash Game Legend

Brad: Yo, what is up? Welcome to Chasing Poker Greatness. I’m your host, Brad Wilson and I am super pumped to have you with me here today. From over the top TV personalities, to the nearly anonymous online grinders cashing out 1000s of dollars a week, to the leaders of poker media, we’re going in search of insights and advice from the world’s best poker players and ambassadors. You’ll hear words of wisdom and words of warning. You’ll look at what keeps them coming back to the table and what they do with their downtime. You’ll be able to examine how they think, how they deal with the ups, the downs and the almost endless repetition that comes with playing one hand after another for days, weeks, months and years. Some of them have shaped the game. Some of them have grown the game. Some of them have changed the game. All of them have one thing in common. Each of them in their own way has achieved poker greatness. Today’s guest is live cash game crusher and online personality, DGAF. DGAF is one of the best professional live cash game players in the world. He’s been playing poker as a pro since 2007. And claiming that he’s going to quit since about 2012. He’s a personal friend, someone I’ve had the pleasure and the honor of doing battle against on the green felt throughout my own poker career. We talk about what got him started with poker, how he became a professional player and his thoughts on eventually getting out of the game. He’ll share the reasoning behind his somewhat paradoxical views on why you should love the game, why you should work tirelessly to get better, and why you shouldn’t be looking to make poker your full-time job and career. For more than 10 years now, he’s been crushing high stakes live poker games, as any poker pro will tell you though, it’s not all roses and rainbows. From huge highs to rock bottom lows, shady people and even a brush with the Hells Angels. He explains what daily life and cardrooms and casinos can be like. His posts on the Two Plus Two Poker Forums have earned more than 2 million. Yes, that’s million views. He’s a successful podcaster himself publishing not one, but two well reviewed podcasts. He co-hosts the mental health call in or should I say Malin show solicited advice, whereas psychiatrists and professional poker player get together once a week to record a podcast over some Belgian beers. That’s their description, not mine. He also headlines his own podcast, DGAF’s Poker Sessions, where he chronicles his adventures in an attempt to get back to even from $250,000 worth of debt with no bankroll. He’ll soon publish a book about his life and adventures in poker titled The Long Run, and he’s put together a collection of some of the coolest poker apparel and accessories to hit the market at pokerrags.us. He is, without a doubt, one of the best liked and most respected players to ever take a seat at a poker table. And it’s truly an honor to have him with me as today’s guest. I can only hope you enjoy listening to this as much as I enjoyed recording it. So, without any further ado, let’s let DGAF speak for himself.

Brad: DGAF my man, how you doing today?

DGAF: I’m doing good. Thank you. How you doing?

Brad: I’m doing great. You know, you’re a good friend of mine. One of the guys that I had the pleasure of meeting and building a relationship within my time in LA. And you know, you’re a high stakes crusher, you’re my people. So, I’m super pumped to talk to you.

DGAF: Me too, those were good times, huh?

Brad: Amazing times, amazing times. And I tell everybody about those times playing cards and traveling and live that the relationships that I made were so much more memorable than the actual cards that were being played.

DGAF: Of course, that stuff doesn’t matter long term. It’s all about the people.

Brad: Now, and I still remember the look on your face when you lost credit card roulette that night that we stayed out till 5am drinking.

DGAF: I still like every night of my life man reminded where we were.

Brad: I don’t even know where we were. It was 5am. I had a flight at like 9am. We had played basketball with Cory and Jesse and Mike and we went out to drink afterwards and it was like $1,000 tab. Everybody had side bets. And you know you didn’t fade credit card roulette. You’re on the hook for like 15 or 1600.

DGAF: That doesn’t surprise me at all.

Brad: Yeah, but I will say though, I think you got the best of it. Me, being a lightweight, not a heavy drinker, not a heavy eater. I would say that percentage wise, I think that long term you crushed me.

DGAF: Oh, I’m always going to get value in those. We’re chopping it up evenly. Like in a dinner, whatever. I’ll get value just based on about have at least, you know, one more drinking

Brad: At least five more drinks than me.

DGAF: I mean, I don’t know how long dinner was or whatever, or what we were doing. Sounds like we were doing something fun though.

Brad: We were having a lot of fun. It was a good time.

DGAF: That’s good.

Brad: So, let’s start this out by, let’s tell the audience your story about getting into playing cards for a living. How’d that come about?

DGAF: Okay, well, I was always a card player even as like a really small kid. I loved it. I just loved like, the strategy but more than the strategy, like the psychology of it, the reads the giving off, fake towels, stuff like, I just always loved that stuff. And so, I always played and I always did well with my friends. You know, and I even played before the boom. I was in it because I was like the kid in the Indian casinos before the boom with all the old people. I was playing Halo stud, limit hold’em. There was no no limit hold’em. And then, you know, it’s working shitty jobs the whole time. And then I remember the day that no limit bro, you know, Moneymaker had just won. ESPN did a great job broadcasting that. And then they started a game at my local casino da hos in San Diego. And I jumped in it right away. And like, maybe 10 minutes into it, I ran a really horrible bluff, but at work. I just like called down with an open ender, missed. And then the guy with the obvious overpower, the old man check to me. And I just stopped it like, I don’t know, it was just impulsive. I just said I’m all in, you know, because I missed my draw. And

Brad: That’s hard to win. Hard to win by checking.

DGAF: He showed the over pair and folded it. And honestly since that, that hand, I knew like no, no, hold on. That was my game. And then I started. I started trying to get good at it. I read. There wasn’t much to read. Really it was just like super system and like, theory of poker, maybe a few other things. There was not much out there, which was good, I thought. But I got way into it. I was keeping, even back then, I kept track of every session.

Brad: How old were you?

DGAF: I wrote about every second. What’s that?

Brad: How old were you?

DGAF: I was probably, so it broke in what 2004 since. I was 30 years old, but I was in the casino since I was old enough to be in. I’m 45 now.

Brad: I was still in the math. I was trying to calculate it in my head. I was like man.

DGAF: Yeah. Can you believe I’m 45 years old?

Brad: I can’t. You can still crush me basketball. Your

DGAF: I don’t know, man. I don’t know.

Brad: I guess it’s good a few years.

DGAF: It’s uh, it’s yeah. I don’t say much, much basketball anymore. But, yeah. So, then I got really serious about it. And I had other jobs. And, you know, I was doing, I was doing well, but I didn’t really go on a heater for a few years. And then I, and then I went on a heater, which is how everyone becomes a pro pretty much one way or another, either being something huge, or they just want a heater at their, their card room. And that’s what I did. And that was like in 2007. And I said, you know, I have a job.

Brad: What’s your job?

DGAF: I actually had moved up. I started out as a delivery driver at a company that got end up getting bought out by Grub Hub. And I just moved up. I was kind of like really thirsty to move up in life. I was getting married and all that. And I’d moved all the way up to a regional manager within a couple of years. I just, you know, applied myself something I hadn’t done very much my life. And so, I had that job. And it was a cool job. I was, it was actually interestingly, I was in charge of San Diego and Las Vegas. Those were my territories. I was flying back and forth. It was cool having people to manage and develop and all that, but I wasn’t making anywhere near what I was making at the casino at night. So, I finally, I wasn’t getting any sleep. So, I finally had to choose, you know one, and I chose the one where I was even way higher.

Brad: What did your, what did your wife think about that? How’d that conversation go?

DGAF: Well, I don’t remember actually how that went. It was Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t think it was too tough of a sell. Because I was bringing home so much money anyways. And yeah, it just wasn’t that hard of a sell. I don’t think, I think family didn’t really like the idea. I mean, this was 2007. There weren’t a ton of poker pros at this time. So, yeah, it wasn’t like a very common thing.

Brad: But it’s still not super common. I don’t think, I think we’re just so much in it that we, you know, we’re so immersed in it, that, that, I still, to this day when people ask me what I do, and I say I’m a Poker Pro. The first question, its always the first question. You can make money doing that? That’s like the first question that everybody always asked me. Even today,

DGAF: Right. Yeah, I mean, I usually get asked like, you know, do you count cards or whatever?

Brad: Oh, my God, that one too. Yeah, do you count cards. They’re always disappointed when I’m like, no, not at all. And I’m pretty shitty at math, too. So, let’s put, let’s put that on the table right away.

DGAF: There’s no way you’re shitting at math. Are you really?

Brad: I don’t know. I guess it depends on who I’m comparing myself to. Yeah, I think that’s the misnomer. You got to be really good at math to play, to play poker professionally. And you really don’t you need to be able to guesstimate and size things up in your head. But other than that, you know, you don’t need to be a, who’s a math wizard? See, I don’t even know who a math wizard is to compare it to.

DGAF: Well, that’s because math wizards aren’t very popular.

Brad: Russell Crowe.

DGAF: You don’t need to be Russell Crowe.

Brad: John Nash. It is who it is.

DGAF: You don’t need to be those guys. Know, but yeah, that’s my story. And then I, I have been a professional poker player ever since 2007. Trying to get out of it, trying to transition out of it now. It’s been a long time, like so.

Brad: So, let’s talk about that. Because that’s something that I find interesting. You know, a lot of people listening to the show right now, you know, the show is chasing poker greatness, right? So, but why? What about poker in the long term, is leading you towards getting out of the game.

DGAF: So, I’m glad you asked that. I’m pretty passionate about this. So that’s good. You have people that want to be great at poker, and I’m all for that. Be great at poker, play often. Play as high as you can, responsibly. Sure if that’s what you want, go for it. But never make it your career. Because most likely, if you’re getting into it, you are on like, if you’re considering going pro, you’re on some kind of heater, that most likely, I mean, there are outliers that stay on a heater for a decade or whatever. But most likely, you know, you’re not going to be in a few years, and it’s going to be a lot different. You’re just, the games are going to get tougher, but more so you’re just going to stop running hot. And that aside, the lifestyle that seems so great, it might not seem that great in 10 years, when, you know, like we’re talking about traveling around, staying up on my credit card with that, that stuff’s a blast, right? But then fast forward 10 years, you got kids. You’re like, you want to be like their basketball coach. And that means you got to be up early in the morning. And now you’re, the game’s good, though. The game is good after midnight. I really believe that you should never make it anything more than like, a supplemental income, a side job, or decide to do it full time. But no, you need to get out in a few years, because life’s going to get a lot more complicated when you get older. You’ll probably have kids, you know, you might have relationships that you want to spend time in. You might not want to be at the casino all night.

Brad: Yeah, for sure. And I can definitely empathize with that. And I would add something to that. And for the people starting their poker journey on that heater, and I’m one of those guys. I’m the typical person, right? I was on a cash game heater. And I think the tournament for like 15,000 really quick.

DGAF: Boom, you’re a pro.

Brad: That sort of, yeah. Boom, I’m a pro. And I’ve been able to maintain the success over these last 15 years. But the flip side is like, always be looking for different sources of income. As a poker player, it’s something that you can rely on that is stable, while you’re writing the heater, no matter what it is, just try to figure out some other income stream because that becomes you know, is that super valuable, you know. Its not making 2k a month or 1k a month, it doesn’t feel super valuable when you’re on a heater, and you’re crushing and making 200k a year. But when the downswing happens, and things are going horrible, that little income stream can make all the difference in the world. So obviously, the journey of a pro, filled with highs and lows. We started, you know, your career started on a heater. Tell me about a low. Tell me about your rock bottom.

DGAF: Okay, I’ll get to my rock bottom, but so yeah, so I kind of decided to go pro in 2007. And it coincided with a heater as everyone’s does, but mine was just like a cash game here. I didn’t, I never had like a serious tournament bank or jackpot or anything. I mean, a lot of pros win a jackpot, and then they become a pro. And then they learn how to get good at poker. But anyways, so that was fine. And then I was trying to actually like running too hot in my little casino, and just annihilating it, like winning every single day. And people got sick of me, even though I was very, like, I wasn’t smug at all. They got sick of me just winning all the time and actually taking it seriously. And there was only like one or two other pros. And so, I decided to move to Vegas, like a bigger pond, I was kind of pushed out of that casino.

Brad: How do they push you out?

DGAF: I haven’t like, it was weird, man. It’s like a really like, you think your local casino is like, very friendly. But if you start winning real money in there on a daily basis, you’re going to find like the ugly side of people. And a lot of the nice recreational players were like, no, you need to go find a bigger pond. And also, one of them that wasn’t that nice some like, ex con guy. Do you like threaten to kill?

Brad: What?!

DGAF: Like, he was all upset that I kept that,

Brad: How did that go? What did he say?

DGAF: He would say stuff. And I’ve never been the best at just brushing that stuff off. And then one day, he brought in a hell’s angel to kind of like, scare me or whatever. And like sit behind me just being kind of weird. And luckily, I knew some really shady people myself. So, I fought them. And then two guys showed up that, you know, I was going to be fine, but it’s just kind of that. It got, even if I wasn’t, if nothing was going to happen, you don’t need that kind of stress in your life, that kind of negativity. It was just kind of for me to, I and I also learned that point, you should always bounce around if you can. You don’t want to be in the same room, winning all the money all the time. So, I really learned the you know, the value of bouncing around. Went to Vegas, there’s lots of casinos. It was an adjustment that the players were better. But the mistake they made is they sat deep. And you could exploit that plenty. And so, it actually, I didn’t have any issues until 2011. And I still won, like I still won like teacher money or cop money, whatever you want to call it. But my expenses were a joke. They were like, you know, pro athlete expenses because that’s what I was used to receiving.

Brad: Yeah.

DGAF: And so that was a, that was enough to bust me even a winning year, like a teacher salary, whatever, that busted me because I was spending so much money traveling. You know, having kid you know, just being irresponsible with my money like I always was.

Brad: Right.

DGAF: Yeah. So, then 2012, I, you know, decided to get really serious about poker again. I didn’t drink at all that whole year, aside from like, four times. And it started out rough. You know, I was playing very focused. But that, you know, sometimes that doesn’t matter, right? Like, you can play as focused as you want. But if you’re not getting cards and you’re running bad, it won’t matter. But then luckily, I did start to run better. And I had a good year. And then the next year I just kind of returned to myself having fun and building the good games. And I had a great year. I played a so that was it. In 2011 I busted, by 2013 I was flush again. I was playing heads-up, anyone want to play heads-up. And I was on a heads-up heater in Vegas during the walkthrough. Just, I would have them announce it over the microphone. Anyone want to play heads-up for any amount know that comes to this idiot drinking at this table right now? I swear. I would have to say like exactly that. And I would get takers. And I was on a heater. I was playing anyone in. Yeah. And then. But you know, I just, like you said it’s good to have that those other streams. It’s good to put money away. I never did either of those things. I didn’t really learn my lesson, which it sucks. I wish I had. And by 2017, then I went through what I, I had wrote an essay called the Abyss where I talked about, and I’m sure you’ve been in it long enough that you know this feeling. You can’t win with any hands. You know that like they’re going to pop a set every time, you’re going to get in with aces against ace jack off suit queen, and really need to win, you know, the guy’s going to make a straight. It’s just like, you just, you have that feeling right? Yes.

Brad: Yes, this feeling where you get aces, right? And you’re like, okay, I have aces, you three back pray and the flops like Deuce for eight. And you bet that book, before you bet you know, you’re getting check raise. It’s like before you bet, you know, you’re fucked. Right? And then you bet and you check a raise and like, yeah, I mean, it’s it like variants is a bitch and you can always run worse than, than you can imagine.

DGAF: And that’s yeah, that’s what I did in 2017. Just like, we’re like, I’m not kidding. Like 40k in the middle of the guy has gone out, we’re all in. One out going in the river, just lose that. And you know, someone who’s never had much of a bankroll, I’ve always just, if I have money, I spent it. I take care of family, friends, whatever, you need 5k here, pay me back if you want, whatever. It’s not correct, but that’s the way I always was. So then, yeah, 2017 was worse than I ever could have imagined. Like, so many. I just get it in really, really good. You know, when you’re, when you’re running hot, you get in with 80%, you just expect to win and you win. But when you’re running horrible, you don’t win. Like, you just lose to that 20% over and over, or 10%. So yeah. And the thing that happened there is my, my kind of vicious cycle was, win money, spend it, then start to run bad, need to borrow money, win back, pay back, same thing. And then in 2017, I ran so bad for so long. You know, I had my first losing year, I thought I could never have a losing year. I didn’t lose much. I lost like 20k or something. I lost more than that in one hand where I was 98%. But that’s enough if you have big spending habits. And now I have two kids at this point. And you know, going through the boards and all this shit. Yes. And I’ve been battling since. I have not run well, since I’ve run better. But it’s just been a struggle, no heater in the last two years. And also, don’t have the capital to play as big as I like, and I just do much better in big game than I do in small game.

Brad: Yeah, it’s brutal. And you know, the flip side of the down swings and running bad is also true, right? Like, you know, when you have 80%, you expect to win. And then you start telling yourself this story in your head, like, you know, you’re obviously on a heater, you’re obviously crushing. But you’re telling yourself, I’m not running that great. Like, I could do this forever. I’m not running back, right. And then it’s only when you get smacked back down to reality that you realize holy shit, I would give anything to run that good again.

DGAF: Variance is the hardest thing for like the human mind to grasp. We, we want there to be a reason for everything, right? Like, I’m crushing us, because I’m playing well, I’m eating well, getting good sleep. I’m studying all this stuff. And yeah, there’s some truth to that. But there’s a lot of like, randomness in life and tons of it in poker. And that’s the hardest thing. It’s just a little unsettling to realize, so much of what happens is just random. You know, like, all the top pros right now, that are, that you see crushing. They’re all on heaters, that’s just the way it is. Not one of them is running even, and certainly not below expectation.

Brad: Yeah, it’s, it’s definitely a mindfuck, the game of poker.

DGAF: But if you play it like, go ahead.

Brad: I was just going to say I’ve learned to that over the years that like expectations, I feel like expectations are when you’re going to get your ass handed to you. Like when you say, I’m going to have a 50k a month, and you expect this, you expect to win, you expect to you know, I’m going to play, you know, 60 hours a week, and I’m just going to crush and I’m going to make 200 an hour. And that’s what I’m going to do. And you have this expectation, that’s when the poker gods have always smacked me back down to earth. And I always try to keep in mind, like, just do your best day by day, take it day by day, hand by hand, just keep doing your best and keep doing your best, don’t have expectations, take what comes and just forge forward.

DGAF: That a good mindset. And also, when things are going really bad, there’s only one thing to do. And that’s take time off. That’s the only thing you can do, right? Because suddenly, people that you used to just like destroys the table. Now they’re feeling very confident against you, they’re playing much better against you, there’s little blood in the water. And it’s like people that you used to just own are starting to own you a little bit. And so that’s when your confidence is shot, you need to take time off. But if you haven’t set up for that moment, you have to play, like you can’t justify not playing when you have bills to pay and you have people to pay back and whatnot. And it’s just really rough. So

Brad: Yeah. Nothing worse than feeling that way and wanting to and having to play, but having no choice.

DGAF: Yeah, it’s, yeah, it’s that, you know, you’re not going to play as well. It’s also bad for your mental health man, the stress of that, like, you know, having to play when you really should be not playing, you should be doing anything else you should be, you know, letting all this stuff wash away from you this bad run. You should be focusing on healthier things. But no, you have to play because you didn’t, you made poker, your career and that was fine. But now it’s, you know, 10 years later. And yeah, it’s just, it’s not a great spot. 

Brad: For sure. For sure. Let’s, let’s change gears a little. And

DGAF: Sure.

Brad: Let’s go back, what would you consider your greatest poker success?

DGAF: My, okay, my greatest poker success was, I don’t know if this is what you’re looking for, but when you ask questions, it just popped in my head. So, I have always struggled with getting the site for money, getting some value out of my career, like, it’s a hustle, it’s a soft hustle, poker is. It just, is you try and keep people at the table, you try and get them to play bigger, you, it’s just a soft hustle, that’s fine. That’s the nature of the game. But I wasn’t getting anything out of it, I was feeling a little bit empty, despite like paying my bills every year. And being a good person, I thought. So, I found a way to get some value out of that. And I started creating content. And I did it for free forever, my 2k thread on two plus two, where I kind of taught others how to be good for the game, how to not be greedy, how to not be short sighted. And you know, being good for the game sacrificing a little bit of EV here and there is actually, that’s actually the smartest thing you can do for making money long term. And you see some of the most successful pros nowadays. They’ve kind of, they’ve kind of taken that and ran with it. If you watch Garrett play a lot with the bike. He’s a really good example. He sacrifices little bits of EV here and there by talking, by, you know, giving action when he knows, when he knows it’s probably not plus EV preflop. But the guy needs action. And yet, so that’s the thing that I’m most proud of, is that I was able to find some meaning in my, in my career, even though I’m still trying to get out of it. I want to become like a recreational player. That’s my dream now. I’ve been able to find meaning. And now I have more content. I do a podcast, a poker podcast that, you know, at least entertains people. Yeah. So, I found meaning in a job that really doesn’t have a ton of meaning unless you go out and seek it, I think.

Brad: And yeah, this is this is my same struggle too, as a cash game professional. And somebody that loves people, and loves giving back and loves taking care of people. What my biggest struggle has been that the game is like you said, it’s a hustle, it can be predatory. You’re not exactly giving back to society by taking people’s money at a poker table, right. And so there can be that lack of fulfillment that you struggle with. And I’ve struggled with that too. And making podcasts and creating content for me as well, helping, giving back has filled that fulfillment. And I’ve also learned over the years too that, you know, even recreational players and people that play for a hobby, they do get value when they play cards, they have fun, they get that rush of the gamble, even if they’re consistently losing. So, it’s not a completely empty thing. But the struggle, I definitely empathize with that struggle. I’ve felt it myself for a long time.

DGAF: Yeah, so the thing you’re talking about, that’s step one is, so if you are going to be a winning player at the table, you got to give something for that. And so, you don’t have to be an entertainer, I kind of am an entertainer.

Brad: I want to be an entertainer. I think you should be. You got to be an entertainer.

DGAF: Yeah.

Brad: Like making fun of these guys, guys.

DGAF: Right? But yeah, you have to at least be pleasant. Like you always show up. And I can’t tell if you’re on an upswing or a downswing, you show up, you got a smile on your face, you’re happy to do a flip, you know, whatever, you’re just like you’re talking, you know, that’s step one, you have to give something if you’re going to be at the table, taking money as a winning player. And that seems basic, right? And you and I have gotten that for a long time. And a lot of pros do, but a lot don’t. A lot just sit there and think they’re just going to take from the game and give nothing to it. And that’s really bad. Those are what I like to call nit.

Brad: We don’t like nits. And

DGAF: No.

Brad: You got to, you got to take into consideration to the long-term sustainability of the game. If you’re a dick, if you’re an ass, when you sit down to recreational players, and you talk trash and you don’t give any value back, why do they want to continue playing poker, if everybody in poker is like that, all the professionals that are trying to win money, all of a sudden, you’re just going to have 900 games filled with a bunch of miserable human beings. And yeah, that’s the death of poker.

DGAF: Yeah, that’s the death of poker and even for yourself, like, sure when you become a poker pro, you quit your job or whatever and you’re a poker pro. You’re going to have a pretty easy time going in there and laser focus for the next year or two, maybe three years. No problem. You’re going to work out every day. You’re going to eat healthy. It’s your new job. You’re excited about it. But 10 years down the road, 15 years down the road, it’s going to lose the luster, you need to have that time go by. And so what better way than talking to people giving away tiny edges here and there because you’re not focused on every little thing they’re doing. But you know, you’re able to sustain you know, your, your career by not being so cutthroat.

Brad: And there are side benefits too, right? Like, my relationship with Max is a side benefit of just trying to be pleasant and talk to people and develop those relationships. Like, especially if you play high stakes poker, you’re surrounded, you know, a recreational player, there’s this thought, and I hear the idiot pros, say like, oh, they’re dumb, they’re horrible, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, this dude is so much more successful than you in life, that he can come here and play high stakes as a hobby. Like, this guy has so much value. He’s so smart at business. He’s an expert, he’s world class at what he does. And just talking to people, like they’re happy to share information about what their world class in. So, you know, there’s value in just talking to these human beings that you’re playing cards with, getting to know them and building a relationship. And a lot of guys, it’s weird. But when you do that, and they know like, I’ve never, I’ve never said, you know, I’m not a pro. I’ve never pretended to be like a recreational player, right? I just

DGAF: Right.

Brad: I don’t think people are stupid. I sit down, I’m shuffling the chips, I’m paying attention. They’re going to know like, they’re, they’re not foolish. So, I, you know, I’m very upfront about that. And like, when you’re pleasant to people, you beat them in pots. They’re not actually that mad. Like, some guys are like, oh, nice hand, and then they just rebuy and life goes on. But I’m building those relationships with the businessmen, with the successful people is part of the journey, the journey should be enjoyed. Poker is not always just a means to an end. So, value that.

DGAF: Yeah, I mean, just on many, many levels, it benefits you to be a good human being, a good social element to the game. You know, it benefits you financially long-term getting that action and additional insight you don’t feel, you don’t feel like a piece of shit when you leave every day. And yeah, that’s, that’s the, that’s the cringiest thing ever is when someone who thinks they’re really good at poker, but likely is just on a giant heater and has no idea, thinks that makes them a better person than the person that doesn’t really give a shit about poker. They’re just there to gamble. It’s, that’s really cringy. I feel you on that one.

Brad: Yeah. And it’s very common. I’ve learned actually that the higher stakes that I’ve played, the less that kind of goes away. 

DGAF: Of course.

Brad: The higher stakes pros intuitively know exactly what we’re talking about. But if you want to go get berated and watch people get berated, you know, go to the one two game. There’s tons of berating there. I was playing, I was playing poker for 60 hours a week at commerce in the high stakes games there. And nobody ever said a word to me. I went and messed around at a one-two game one night, and I got berated four times, in three hours.

DGAF: Oh yeah. You’re probably just like giving it away, right?

Brad: Yeah, I did not care. You know, like I’ve wrote, whatever. Like I’m used to playing 10-20 and 20-40 no limit, like this is fun to me. I, it was my, it was me being a recreational player and just trying to have fun. These guys are fighting back.

DGAF: And you’re giving back to the community but they hate it. Play right man. Play right.

Brad: They hate it.

What is up you future star of poker, you. Coach Brad here and I just wanted to take a moment to let you know about PKC poker. If you’re sitting there wondering, why? Why is coach Brad promoting this PKC poker app thing? Allow me a moment to explain my why. Battling in cash games has been my livelihood for the past 15 years. It’s how I survive and put food on the table, which makes it imperative that I either test out or seek qualified opinions on all the poker platforms on the market. One juicy fine can mean the difference between a meh year and an amazing family vacation and why kind of year. With that said I’ve tried almost all of the major poker apps on the market to date and despite the hype about amazingly juicy games, I’ve come away from the experience unsatisfied. I was just never able to find amazing success against seemingly weak competition. And in one specific case was getting outright destroyed by passive villains playing more than 50% of their hands. What the heck was going on, right? After many evenings sitting in the bathtub, wondering if I had lost it, I finally dug into the data and learn something that shouldn’t have been too surprising to you. These dudes were colluding and super using their pants off. So, I swore off those free money, decentralized devil apps and decided to go back to my more familiar streets of ignition. It was then that I was contacted by a good friend of mine who turned out to be the Vice President of Worldwide Operations at PKC. Him and I had a long in-depth conversation about security, the ecosystem and the future direction of PKC, and he managed to convince me to give it a shot. That shot turned into an incredible six months with an hourly rate that’s about five times what it would have been playing on any other US platform. As it turns out, I didn’t forget how to play, I just needed to be on a level playing field to return to my crushing ways. I have no doubt that you, my community, my audience is going to play online poker somewhere. And I want to be damn sure that you don’t go through the pain and frustration I felt by messing around with any poker app besides PKC. This is why promoting PKC is a no brainer for me. I love my community. And I want to put you in the best position to succeed at this game that we both love so much. So, if you’d like to join me in the streets of PKC, simply head to enhanceyouredge.com/pkc and get your invite code to play. You must have an invite code and you must be 21 years of age or older. One more time, that’s enhanceyouredge.com/pkc. Best of luck, and now on with the show.

 

Brad: So, let’s, what do you, what is your process for regularly improving your poker game? What does that look like?

DGAF: For me it’s, I’m so far down the road right now. That really, it’s just about going in, mentally ready to play, like not too stressed out. I got to be rested. But I also got to be calm. I don’t really like do, you know, I check out some train site stuff. But for me, it’s just almost all autopilot. It’s just, you know, take all the variables, wham correctly I like the way that I do that, like naturally and what I’ve learned over the years, so it’s not about improving my game as much as it’s about proving my state of mind when I go in there. Does that make sense?

Brad: Yeah, it’s performance, performance related.

DGAF: I can autopilot. Like almost every decision, almost every night. And that’s fine. So, the key is to just do that and not get too fancy. Not like overthink things and in yeah, no, that’s, that’s not the, it’s not a very flashy answer, but that.

Brad: Hey, we’re just looking for the truth here, your truth. DGAF

DGAF: That’s true. That’s it.

Brad: What’s some common poker advice you hear that you completely disagree with?

DGAF: Hmm. Well, tell me some of the advice is going around.

Brad: I don’t know. I don’t know the advice it’s going around right now. Play GTO. I think that’s some advice. That’s pretty prevalent. You GT is possible.

DGAF: There it is, the biggest, the biggest, like fallacy is trying to make online poker the same thing is live poker. Online poker, you’re going to get a lot of volume in and you can track what people are doing. Right? Like you can know their freak, their tendencies in different spots. Is that correct? You can still do that, right? I don’t say that you can still do that.

Brad: Yeah, you can.

DGAF: Okay, live, you will never, ever, ever get a sample size, an adequate one against anyone in any certain spot. So, to balance everything, I think you should start, you should come from a place of balance, you should understand how to balance your range, etc. But if you’re, you know, you’re wasting money if you know the guy, it’s just not going to fold.

Brad: Don’t bluff it.

DGAF: And you’re betting with your bloods in your range. That may be great in theory, but it’s really bad in practice.

Brad: My God, I completely agree with you.

DGAF: You can’t make, live poker is different. It’s not. Its just not online poker online poker is very technical. And very theoretical, live is a lot different. It’s a very psychological.

Brad: And even in both of them. There are spots where, you know, you plug it into GTO, and obviously GTO, a solver is going to have you bluffing a certain percentage, right? But I know I can look at this dude and say, this motherfucker, if I bet his firstborn child, he is not folding here, right? It doesn’t matter.

DGAF: Of course.

Brad: So, I do not want to have bluffs in my range, like just play exploitive, and it’s not even exploitative. Actually, as GTO. If you know, the dude’s never folding, GTO will say never bluff him, right. It’s just all about data, collecting great data, and playing optimal points.

DGAF: That’s a good point.

Brad: That’s some yeah, it’s a little thing that I’m a little ticky tacky. I don’t think there really is exploitation. I just think there’s bad data that you input into a solver.

DGAF: Yeah, I like that. I mean, there are certain things in you know, just there’s certain things you need to balance. Against like, the more, the reasonably perceptive players, your opening sizes, your see that like, so a lot of things like my favorite exploit is these guys that will pop control everyone per hand and they’ll see that just a very polarized range like they don’t have it, they’ll see that for the puppet monster there see that? And that’s just really easy to play against who’s

Brad: This is wrong.

DGAF: Yeah.

Brad: That’s, you just raised the shit out of them.

DGAF: Like voter base yeah. But that’s, that’s, you know there are parts of the game you do need to balance and in all that, but a lot of the, a lot of it you don’t. Like you said that guy just stacked off. His wife just called him, pissed him off. He’s been drinking all night. And if you’re going to have less than your range on the river, you’re a fucking idiot. Like he just, you better have it here.

Brad: Yeah, and that’s where a lot of people go wrong, trying to force it when you know, just dudes not folding. And there are absolutes in a lot of these spots where dudes not folding and then the flip side is, dudes never calling. So, exploit the fact that much,

DGAF: Then you should, when you have the hand, you just shouldn’t bet as much as when you don’t have the hand that

Brad: Exactly

DGAF: That just seems so basic. Yeah, I’ve done that forever. It’s, you know, like, the Doug Pope’s of the world will not agree with that. But that’s fine. It just makes, it’s common sense. Like, you’re saying it is just the, the data that is in there to say have bluffs, the range is wrong.

Brad: Right, exactly. You need the data that you’re inputting is wrong, and so the feedbacks wrong. But like in live poker, you talked about betting small versus the weaker ranges, which like, I’ve always done that too, because it makes sense. Like, if they’re not going to call a 66% pot size bet, what bet will they call? Or on the flip side is, what bet can I make that induces a raise with their bluffs, right? It’s either, those are the two things going on my, on in my mind on the river. And with live poker, there’s, like you said, it’s psychological. And those spots where villains are super weak. You know, say it’s a $3,000 pot and you bet 175 on the river, there’s a psychological element that like guys don’t want to fold, you know. They look at the pot, they see the pot so big, they look at your bet, your bet is so small. And there’s this social pressure too that, like they don’t want to look silly on the river.

DGAF: Yeah.

Brad: So that can induce

DGAF: The questioning of manhood.

Brad: Exactly, exactly. So that induces the raise, and then you get the value that you want it. You have to be clever in extracting value.

DGAF: Yeah, agreed.

Brad: So, 2007 30-year-old DGAF. Let’s imagine that that dude is right here, sitting next to you. And you have the chance to give him some wisdom. What would that wisdom be?

DGAF: You know what, I actually did get this wisdom at that time from someone who had been around and he said, always had, come up with your exit strategy now. Yes, I know you’re crushing the game, you’re destroying it. Come up with your exit strategy. Now. There’ll be a time when you don’t want to do this. Or you’ll start running poorly. And I actually, someone had that talk with me, but I didn’t, I didn’t listen to him. I’m a little bit hard headed. So

Brad: How did it make you feel when they had that talk? Or were you thinking?

DGAF: You don’t know, man. You don’t know how good I am. You don’t know how much I love this game. You know, like, even if you are really good, you’re not going to love it. Like, you’re just not going to love it as much after 20,000 hours of sitting there. And like hearing the same conversation, seeing the same nervous energy, getting hit and run all the time. Just all that stuff. That’s fine. It’s fine. For the first few years. It’s even like, it’s kind of exciting. And then, and then the luster wears off. So, I would say, okay, you’re not going to listen to me because you’re fucking hard headed. But, you know, you’ll remember this conversation that I’m right. Like, you should not make this a long-term career. Go ahead, you can play full time when you’re in your 20s, whatever, but just know, it’s like a three-year thing, or whatever. And it’s just, you’re going to want different things in life. You’re going to want less stress. That’s the swings are fine, right? When you start out. But then like, as it goes on, it relates like the effect of it of just swinging all the time sucks. Every time you know, you lose a big pot of the big favorite. It gets worse and worse as you get older. It’s just, I think that’s just the way it is.

Brad: Yeah.

DGAF: I would have the same conversation the guy like I have with me, but yeah, I don’t know. I think a lot of people will listen, a lot of people, I’ve said this a lot in my thread and I’ve actually what you know, quote unquote, saved some people from making poker, their career, they still play, they play well, they play hide, they play the biggest games. And if you’ve noticed in, you don’t play a ton of live anymore, but the rec players are there, there’s not much difference between them and the pros, like, a lot of them are just as good and they’re less stressed. So, they’re playing better.

Brad: And I don’t, I think that there’s still value in playing this game for a living and making your income and trying to do it long term. But you know, it’s a game, right, and I played millions of hands of the same game. And you have to think to yourself, at some point, this gets a little redundant, right? This can get a little boring when you see the same situations, you know, you’re, you’re playing the same 18 holes of golf over and over and over again for 15 years straight. So, try to achieve balance, look for balance, specifically and different income streams and just protect yourself. Build that that bubble to where poker isn’t necessary. And if poker is not necessary, then it’s fun. It’s a treat. It’s, it can be a large percentage of your income, 60, 70, 80%, but still focus on trying to find those other streams.

DGAF: Well, you said it exactly right too, like, at first, it seems great. Like, I would love to play golf every day for the next, you know, year or whatever, or five days a week for next year, the same course or whatever. But after that, it’s, I always, I always compare it to like porn, like, think about what you’re like, in your 20s How awesome would be to be a porn star. Like you’re having sex and you’re getting paid for it. That’s what it kind of feels if you’re a poker pro, but then now be 45 years old, and you’re like, I don’t want to go fuck right now.

Brad: I have never heard that analogy. I don’t think I’ve ever had that desire. But to each their own sir.

DGAF: The dream job becomes a nightmare job is.

Brad: Yeah.

DGAF: If you make it a career.

Brad: Right. I think, you know, when I, when I was 22 years old. And I remember, I was with a friend and my mom was around and we were talking. And my friend said, you know, I’ll never forget, he said, you know, Brad never has to have a real job again. Brad never has to work or have a real job again, right? And that’s always stuck with me. And that was, that was the feeling, right? When you first start is saying holy shit. I don’t need a job. Like I can do this thing. And it’s exciting. It’s an adventure. But like you said, life, it goes in seasons and things change.

DGAF: Yeah, I mean, look, look how many people I know no limit only broke. And that’s when it became really profitable. But just look how many people have made it from the start to now and are happy. People that haven’t been of course, if you’ve been something huge, that’s different. You started investing. Like, Johnson, you know, he’s probably set for life. Right? He won the main event. He was, he was you know, he played, do you remember playing with him? Or was he after you?

Brad: I don’t, look, I’m going to show that ignorance here. I don’t know who’s won the main event like the last 10 years. I haven’t, I haven’t kept up with it. Tournament poker.

DGAF: So, this year, what can I think of who won this year? The guy that won it last year was a commerce rag. And he was playing in the games that we were playing in, but I think he may have come after you. I think maybe he was playing 5-10 when you were there. And then he moved up when you, when you went when you stopped going to commerce. And so, he had a huge bank, right? And I imagine he’s investing in so like, yeah, he can always be a poker pro. But he had that huge, anomalous being. But how many people just grind and are happy 10, 15, 20 years later? None. Like they all get into something else. I’m in the content. Now. I’m trying to monetize my podcast. You’re doing other stuff on the side. Every single person that stays in poker does something else, so why not start that thing immediately and never dive all the way in?

Brad: And you know, it’s a, it’s an interesting thing. It, like I love poker, I still have a lot of love for the depth of the strategy in the game. But at some point, when you have success, sustained success, you it can get a little boring. You want to challenge right, I think professional players thrive on challenges. They thrive on overcoming obstacles, and doing these things and succeeding where lots of people fail. So, when you succeed for a long time, you want to seek out other challenges to prove yourself. I think that’s very natural sequence of events.

DGAF: Of course.

Brad: So, let’s just do this lightning round. There’s a 23-year-old kid that’s listening to this show right now in the audience, who is you know, he wants to chase poker greatness himself, wants to give it a shot. You can give them one book to read. What book would you give them?

DGAF: Wow, that’s a great question. I wish I was more of a reader because I would definitely have them read some book about life. It doesn’t even have anything to do with poker. But I think like, for me, like Syria poker is it’s, it’s, it’s so old, and it’s not even outdated. It’s just the best book with understanding EV. Just like the basics that remain the staples of winning money in poker. I wish I read more that I would suggest some like, great philosophical book. But maybe you could do that for that kid. But I can’t, I’m sorry. I don’t read that much.

Brad: Yeah, my books, all the books that I would suggest that I’ve talked about it in my other shows, but Rock Breaks Scissors, I think is my favorite by William Poundstone. I read it, it’s about randomness and human beings. And our humans are literally the worst random number generators. And yet, we think we’re amazing. And leveraging that at the poker table. And just in life. That book was hugely beneficial and instructional to me. But all my, all my books that I would give 23, 24-year-old kids, they all would improve their poker game, but they’re more life than specifically poker.

DGAF: Yeah, that one you mentioned sounds great. Like if you can understand variants, it’s going to help you or just have a grasp a little bit of a grasp on it, which no one, almost no one does. It’ll improve your poker game for sure and help you handle the swings better. But it’ll just make you better at life, you’ll understand that if you’re doing really well, you did run hot in different ways, genetics, upbringing, something. And if you’re not doing well, you didn’t run hot in some way, genetics, all that same stuff. And you’ll just be more humble, and just a better way to live. So that’s a great book, I would tell a 23-year-old to take through your poker and throw it in the trash and read the books that Brad tells you.

Brad: Oh man, we have this tendency.

DGAF: I don’t, I don’t really read, I’m too busy.

Brad: It’s so easy to focus and zoom in on the graph and look at like this this downswing and think that it’s the end of the world, instead of zooming out and looking at the big picture of things. And you know, if you want to be a poker professional, zoom out, look at the big picture. Don’t freak out, when you know, you lose four or five sessions in a row. These things happen, just you know, keep your mindset right. And for john,

DGAF: I would also just add really quickly. One thing I’m very passionate about, and there are different books on it, is focus breathing. You can go, you can use it to relax, you can use it to meditate. I use it at the table. I know a lot of other pros now do as well. I use it away from the table all the time. If you can learn to the moment you’re having any kind of negative emotion or you feel too wound up to just have it kick in, or I need to do some focus breathing, that will change your life a ton.

Brad: What’s a resource that the audience can go find that out? What do you use?

DGAF: They could download headspace, they could download that app. And yeah, using a breathing app. At first, I was like, what, a breathing app? And then yeah, a breathing app. It’s great. There are several of them. But headspace is the one that people are, you know, most keen on, it seems like and you know, it’s just, its life changing. I used to have a lot of, I thought was anxiety. But it wasn’t, it turns out it was nervousness. And I don’t have much at all anymore. Because the moment I start to feel that shit coming on, I do some focus breathing. And after you use the app for a while, you can learn to do it without the app. I do it in traffic. I do it all the time.

Brad: And here’s another thing that I’ve learned. I learned it from a buddy, Adam Creek. He is an Olympic gold medalist. And I asked him, you know, what did it feel like, you know, getting, he was rowing at, I think it was Athens, or maybe it was Beijing Olympics 2008. He was in his boat. They’re about to compete. They’re the favorites to be the Olympic champions right. They are multiple time world champion and I, and he was telling me like he’s talking to himself. He’s like, thank you. Thank you for this nervousness. Thank you for this anxiety. Thank you, thank you. And I’m like, why are you thankful for that nervousness, that anxiety? And he said it’s energy. That’s what it is. Like, you can funnel it in a negative way where you ruminate, or you can funnel it in a positive way where you focus. So, he’s very thankful for that anxiety and that energy. And I’m a huge proponent of meditation as well. I love it. I think that you know, focus and cultivating our awareness is one of the most powerful things we do. It’s like lifting weights for your brain. So, 100% check out Headspace, you can check out calm. Any one of those apps, the most important thing is just do it. Make it a practice. Invest the time and energy into getting it done.

DGAF: Yeah, it doesn’t take long. It takes me like two minutes. If I get, if something happens, that really bothers me, it takes me two minutes, if I do it correctly to get back. At two minutes is not bad.

Brad: No. That’s a massive plus EV play for two minutes.

DGAF: Yeah.

Brad: What’s something that you use to strongly believe about poker that you’ve recently changed your mind? And what led to that change?

DGAF: Let’s see here, that I used to strongly believe about it. And it’s changed. I would say, I think people talk about game selection. And it’s, it’s important to be in good games. Obviously, that’s where the money is. Doesn’t matter how good you are. If you’re sitting in some knit festival, nine handed to blind game, you’re not winning shit. Running, even. though it’s important to being good games. But rather than game select, you should gain cultivate, you should make the game fun, put the straddle on, you’re the pro, you got to start giving a little bit EV, and then others will follow along. And you have to manage the net. Like, unfortunately, you have to be a little bit of a vigilante at the poker table. So, I don’t mean select. I don’t go look for good games. I make them out of thin air, how I sit down. I mean, not everyone can drink when they play, but I can just have a few beers. Even if I’m not I can talk, I can put the straddle on, I can talk to see jokes. I will not think because I’ve won a lot of money in poker. I think I’m good at it. That doesn’t make me think on anything as a human being like, being a human being is separate. And so, I just try and connect with people. And I cultivate games you will see like, I can go to any casino if, if their biggest game is 5-10. The next morning, you might see a 20-40-80 going it’s just, and how did I do it just being chill being me. Having fun, not taking myself too seriously. Making the game fun. I think games like again, cultivated.

Brad: Yeah, that’s such an awesome answer. And I found there’s this interesting psychology that happens, especially if somebody is like you, right? You’re playing heads up. You’re starting games. When I play online, and there’s screen names involved. Take it back in like ultimate bet days, right? I sit down at a six handed table by myself. All the games are horrible. The regs don’t sit against me, the regs don’t want to play me heads up. So, who sits against me, the recreational players. So, all of a sudden, I get three wrecks that sit against me. And then by that time, the regs kind of see what’s happening, and they jump in, and then all of a sudden, you know, you’ve created a good game. And also, when I played the live tournament a few months ago, it you know, I don’t play much live and it’s a tournament. And tournaments are weird, in that everybody was so serious, like, it was like, oh my God, like every decision was like the end of the world, right. But like, yeah, I just start talking to people and making jokes and like lightening people up. And all of a sudden, people are laughing, people are splashing around a little bit more, the game gets more fun. And you always want to try to make the games as fun as possible, if you can, because that just it’s just a better experience overall, win, lose or draw, the experience matters.

DGAF: It’s creating that game, it’s creating what, you know, the people that are there with money to lose and want the entertainment. And you’re there, you got to bring the entertainment because you want the money that’s basic, so it’s creating that for them. But it’s also like you said, standing up to the nit. And you can do that in different ways. Like I, if I, you can be really good player. And if you’re good for the game and other ways, I’m happy to have you in my game. But if you’re bad to the game in any way, if you open the button, I’m never letting you like, you’re going to have to battle for this. I know that like nit don’t, they don’t want to battle even if you know, sometimes they’re going to have a good hand there, but they know to open wide, and they don’t know how to battle with a wide range. So, but if this person on the button is cool and good for the game, even though they’re winning fair, but they smile, they do different things. I’m not going to take like the super high variance. I’m just going to pull my fucking head but if you’re if you’re garbage for the game, I’m coming after you every single time you open a pot in eventually yeah, you’re right. Those people are not going to want to play.

Brad: Yeah, it’s very specifically. I remember a situation at commerce. There’s a week where I played a ton with Bruno Mars, just I don’t know probably

DGAF: I love that guy.

Brad: 40 to 60 hours of cards with him and there’s this one weird dude, I can’t remember his name. I do remember his name, but I’m not going to say it. But he was really weird towards Peter Jean. As Bruno Mars, his name is. He was like trying to get him to look at songs that he had written. He had like moved up stakes.

DGAF: Really?

Brad: Yeah, he had moved up stakes just to play against.

DGAF: Oh, I was going to say JJ Commerce, but now I think it’s someone else.

Brad: No, it’s not JJ. It’s not JJ. His name’s Matrix. But yeah, he, it was really weird. And so that the dude built up and he had moved up stakes, and he had built up like a 5k stack or something, and me and him get it in. And he’s like, being ultra-weird. And I’m cool with running twice, whatever anybody wants to do. I’m there to make the game fun. I’ll do whatever they want. But when I got it, and against that guy, I was like, no, one time, like, we’re going to run this one time. I’m going to bless you, and we’re going to fill that seat up with somebody else. And that’s exactly what happened. I busted him and he left and he couldn’t breathe by.

DGAF: It’s a little bit uncomfortable being like, that’s just being, that’s not being super confrontational. But sometimes you have to be because you have to protect the game. The players run the game. And Bruno Mars is the shit, my favorite celebrity of all time to play with. I love that guy. So go, go to the next one. But yeah, he did the right thing. Get rid of the fucking guy that’s trying to get too much of the game. Just be happy to be in the game, you know?

Brad: Exactly. He wants to be a normal guy like and I mean, as we all do, right? What’s a project you’re working on that’s near and dear to your heart?

DGAF: I have several of them. I have a clothing company called Poker Eggs. I have a book I’m writing called the Long Run, which is just the same ideas, is everything I’ve been saying last hour, but I have a couple podcasts like my, my main project right now is Sessions. That’s my podcast. It started out as just my poker story. And it quickly turned into my life story, which I’m on the comeback trail way at the beginning of it. Just, you know, I’ve already, I’ve already told you that I’ve already done this before. This time, it’s taking a lot longer. It’s just a very real podcast. The feedback I get is really incredible. If you just go read the reviews, its insane what people are saying. And that’s my passion. This is what I want to do. So, this is Sessions, that’s it.

Brad: And I beg the audience go check that out, your. you know, one of one of the really genuinely amazing dudes in poker that gives back and gives everything. Not just gives back but gives everything that he has to give back. And when they check out your content, they’ll see that, it’ll it resonates with a lot of people. It’s very giving, very generous. At the end of the day.

DGAF: Thank you.

Brad: At the end of the day, because there will be an end of the day for all of us. What would you like your poker legacy to be? How would you like your community, your people to remember you?

DGAF: I was the one like this what, that is actually some old school guy told me this a couple of years. And after I moved to Vegas, he said, you’re the first person I’ve ever known to absolutely crush the game, and absolutely be amazing for the game. And that’s, that’s what I want. That’s, you know, I just, I looked at everything long term. I wanted to be a good person. I wanted to have fun in my life. I needed to win money, but I never got greedy. And yes, I learned pretty quickly how to be good for the game while winning a lot of money.

Brad: That’s huge value. It’s a, it’s a, an awesome thing to strive for. And I have no doubt that that will be what the people that know you well that have played against you that have battled spent time with you on the felt. That will be what people think about. I can guarantee that. And final question Where can the chasing poker greatest audience find you on the worldwide webs?

DGAF: So, anywhere you get podcasts, you can search DGAF and you will see The Iceman avatar. And yeah, DJAF on Spotify, Apple podcast, whatever, you’ll see that there. You can go to Two Plus Two Poker forums and go to the medium high full ring. I have a thread that I started when I thought I was getting out of poker in 2012. That didn’t work out so well. It has over a million views just in the middle of nowhere on the internet. It’s called 2K a poker story way to motherfucking long didn’t read obviously. So yeah, those just or you could just search DGAF poker player, you could just put it anywhere in your browser and stuff will come up my blog site. But really, if you want to check out the best that I offer, that’s Sessions, go just but if you type sessions in your podcast, search bar, it might not work. So just put in DGAF and you’ll see Iceman, that’s Teddy Monroe to black do with the diamond, fake diamond encrusted headphones. And that’s my avatar, always has been, probably always will be.

Brad: And all this stuff will be in the show notes as well and we’ll also blast it out on our social media channels so that you guys that you know. You member of the audience is watching right now can easily find all of the gas content. Man, it’s been an amazing time. I enjoyed it as always, let’s do a round 200% in six months or a year would be very happy to have you back.

DGAF: Oh yeah, definitely man. Thanks for hitting me up. Great. Great catch up with you. You seem like you’re doing well. I see those stacks behind you. You got a lot of red chips. Lot of green. Lot of black. Thanks for having me on man. Very cool. I like you from day one. You know, even though you are really good player, and that’s how it goes after you’re in the game for a while. You don’t, that’s not all you care about is how’s this person as a human being.

Brad: And I think that that, that would be the legacy that I would want to leave in poker. I just want to be a good dude that you know people have fun playing with, and that was good for the game and the way that it made it fun. Because that’s what matters to me.

DGAF: I think you’re on your way as well.

Brad: Appreciate it man.