DGAF: Rage Against the Unregulated Machines
Chasing Poker Greatness Podcast Episode 060
DGAF on social media:
Today’s episode features the highly requested round 2 with “Sessions” podcast host DGAF.
DGAF is a good friend of mine who I have battled with many times. He’s one of the good guys in poker that genuinely cares about the human beings he interacts with on the felt.
We’re going to jump into the Jungleman saga and why neither one of us really care, the pitfalls of online poker, and why I have come to hate ALL of the US facing operators.
So without any further ado, I bring to you my conversation with the man, the myth, the legend DGAF.
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Pokers legendary champions, next generation stars and tireless ambassadors of the game, sharing their wisdom and guiding your journey to high achievement on the Greenfeld. This is chasing poker greatness with your host Brad Wilson.
What is happening my friend welcome into the chasing poker greatness podcast. Before we jump into the show, I’d like to take a second to let you know that if you would like to support chasing poker greatness, you can head to enhance your edge.com/resources there will be a link in the show description. And if you sign up for any of the trusted services I’ve linked to, I’ll get a small commission you’ll improve at poker. It’s a win win. You can also visit enhancer edge.com/resources The next time that you’re ready to do some online shopping at Amazon. Just click through my Amazon banner and Bingo Bango Bongo, I make a tiny commission and it doesn’t cost you a penny. With that out of the way. Today’s episode features the round two of D gaff the highly requested round two I might add def is a good friend of mine who I have battled with many times on the felt one of the very few people that I consider one of the good guys in the Live Poker realm that just genuinely wants to do the right thing on a regular basis. We’re gonna jump into the jungle man saga, why neither one of us really care about the Jungleman saga, we’re going to jump into the pitfalls of online poker and why I have come to hate all of the online operators that are us facing and much much more. So without any further ado, I bring to you my conversation with the man the myth, the legend DGAF. DGAF How are we doing, sir?
DGAF (2:22) Dude, okay, Brad, how are you?
Brad Wilson (2:25) I’m simmering. And doing okay. It’s very bored in quarantine. And you know?
DGAF (2:33) Yeah, that was I saw that on Twitter. That you were simmering. And as I mentioned you just a minute ago when we linked up here on Zoom. I’ve never seen us simmer before. I found it interesting. I found it a little comforting, in a weird way.
Brad Wilson (2:51) Really comforting.
DGAF (2:54) Just like you know you’re just not 100% Nice and at peace with the world 100% of the time.
Brad Wilson (3:03) Yeah, I think just seeing seeing what online pokers turned into that yesterday the poker community is cheering because an online poker site actually paid a bad beat jackpot. I mean, this is like this is how far our standards have have come.
DGAF (3:20) Yeah, so I’m not super familiar with with what happened first of all, what site was it? Let’s just get it out.
Brad Wilson (3:27) There is bet online first of all, fuck them.
DGAF (3:30) But is that a big so I don’t know much about on there.
Brad Wilson (3:33) Like a sports book. I don’t even know exactly what they are. I know that the bad beat jackpot was 400k. Dudes playing he hits the bad beat jackpot. The software crashes on him on the river. He’s never had one problem with the software ever before it crashes. They’re not going to honor the bad beat jackpot. He collects all the information and takes it to Joey I was retweeting it too. But I think Joe is the one that had some juice. And they ended up honoring the bad beat jackpot after pressure was put on them socially. But if left to their own devices, they were definitely not going to honor the bad beat jackpot. And everybody’s just like, poker community is erupting and cheers, because a site did what it’s supposed to do. And that to me is like, indicative of just how fucked up the online landscape is.
DGAF (4:25) Yeah, they will. Were they cheering that online? Or are they cheering Joey for stepping up?
Brad Wilson (4:30) Some people were cheering that online. A lot of people were cheering Joey you know, I I saw a lot of comments like, Hey, man, you gotta give Joey a piece of that for getting it done for you yada yada yada. And I’m like, Dude, why the like it’s just fucking insane to me that this is what it’s come to, but I guess it is what it is.
DGAF (4:52) Yeah, I think it’s so I don’t know much about that. Are there any like good places to play online? WSOP seems okay.
Brad Wilson (5:01) Well, I don’t have access to any legal place in Atlanta. So I can’t play on WSOP. All I can say is, today I was setting up a Resources link at enhance your edge.com for people to click through and support the show. And when it comes to affiliate marketing, in this space, the most profitable affiliate marketing is marketing a platform. And I got two little slot where it was like, said platform. And basically, the gist of what I said was fucking Mall. Don’t trust anybody, I can’t, in good conscience recommend any single us facing platform, because none of them had the player’s best interest in mind. None of them are doing the right things. And it’s just bullshit, man.
DGAF (5:49) Yeah, it’s a I think that’s true for the live world as well. And people have always told me just just to kind of piggyback on that a little bit to that I should run home games. And the reason I’ve always thought that if I wanted to I could is because there’s plenty of money to make, while making it good for the players as well. There’s just but not one. I can’t think of one instance one home game operator, one online operator, who didn’t get greedy, you have to just have that. That ability to not get greedy, even though you see opportunity, like freezing, some kid out on his fucking bad beat jackpot share. That’s just, that’s just like the fucking corporate world. It seems like,
Brad Wilson (6:40) it’s what’s worse than that, right? Like, I just, it just drives me insane. And you’re right about the home games, most people get greedy. They want to everybody has this mentality of I’m going to take as much as I possibly can from the poker community as quickly as I possibly can. And then I’m going to disappear into the night, like nobody’s thinking long term, nobody’s an advocate for the players, the players can’t even get their shit together. And force change in a lot of these situations. I mean, think about the Venetian last year had like a, I can’t remember what the guarantee was, but 300k period, if it goes over, then they still distribute 300k in the prize pool no matter what. And they made it. Right, the players didn’t fucking band together and boycott that tournament, they made the guarantee. And that, to me is like a social experiment saying, how much can we fuck the players and they just don’t even care, they’re still going to show up if they feel like they can get some value. So like, the poker community needs to start bypassing some of these spots where they think they can get value in favor of making things better down the line.
DGAF (7:53) Yeah, it’s, there’s a fundamental issue in that poker is a very individual game, right? So it’s just it’s rare to find solidarity. You know, people banding together to say fuck you to the Venetian. Because someone’s gonna say, well, everyone’s saying that. So the the tournament is going to be sick. It’s going to be a bunch of people who don’t understand. And then I’m gonna go play. And that’s, you can see the merit in that. But yeah, it’s a there’s a huge market, in my opinion, for people to run games online, or live and just not be assholes.
Brad Wilson (8:35) Good luck. Most people are assholes. And like, that’s the, that’s just the fact of it. Right? Like poker players. We’re conditioned to battle each other and take each other’s money anyway. So having us band together is a little bit counter to our nature, just as poker players, but even looking at the apps right now, you know, poker Bros is going bananas. One of my followers in discord sent me a message and told me Hey, Brad, like, you’ve got a way bigger following than me. I’ve been an agent on poker bros. I brought in 30k. Last month, just as an affiliate bringing people on to poker bros. You should do it. You know, you should promote it. You should get some people on there. But poker Bros is a scam. It is a it is just a straight up scam. Like, if you like if you play bigger than one, two, right? The Rake is about five times bigger than ignition. That’s this is first of all, at at 510 No limit, they take three big blinds maximum per hand up to 5% So $30 rake every hand Second of all the money is not secure. You’re sending it to some random dude hoping that he sits on it. And then when you when that he sends you money back right? What happens when that dude makes a bad investment or his real estate properties crash and he can’t Meet the mortgages and he’s sitting on a pool of 100k You think you’re gonna get paid dude is going to take that 100k out disappear forever and scam everybody. It’s just it’s a nightmare that is going to come to fruition in some cases.
DGAF (10:15) I think it already has another another thing. That’s, I mean, we’ve been in this quarantine for two months, a little over two months. So I would I would call that like, kind of a gold rush for online poker again. You know, a boon for online poker again, a bunch of bad players playing, you know, in bad players. I’m saying live players which live players aren’t bad at Live Poker, but they’re bad at online poker they are I wouldn’t, I would get destroyed by a good online player.
Brad Wilson (10:47) Have you been playing in the games?
DGAF (10:49) No, I’ve been busy enough. Well, here’s what I was gonna say. I’ve been busy enough. Taking this time to like get a break from poker. And I’ve been busy enough building a community, which has been really amazing. And time consuming and interesting. And, and a cool thing is one thing I do is offer online home games. But just I don’t ever want anyone getting hurt. So the biggest buy in is $20. Or it’s just like, if you go to your neighbor’s house, you can win or lose. But here’s what I know about those, those games. You as the operator, you have to set you have to set it to Sona rate, but you don’t need to set to three big blinds. Right? So the lowest is one big line. Or you can cap it at one big line you can do I think 1% cap that one big line, which seems really small, right? Well, I have these games that are 510 five cent, 10 cent, 20 cent. And over the course of a month, we’ll generate two or 3000 in rake playing tiny with the lowest setting possible. And then we give it back. I don’t I don’t I’m not into the rake game. So we give it back in a tournament. I mean, there are expenses with poker bros, they charge you for buying chips, adding players, they, it’s a good business model by them. So but even after the expenses, there’s probably, you know, 2k a month of just rake, and I’m not trying to take it. So we give it back to the players in like a lottery type thing. But it just goes to show. That’s the lowest possible setting. And you can actually set tournaments up for zero rate, but for the cash games you must have, it won’t allow you to run a game without I believe 1% capped at one big blind. And if these big unions did that, they would make plenty and the players would have a chance to win, but they’re just not going to do it.
Brad Wilson (12:53) Yeah, they’re there. Because why do they have to? There’s no competition? They don’t they don’t have to, they get players no matter what,
DGAF (13:00) if it was legal to take great, I would do it I would just offer whatever games people want at the lowest possible rake. And, you know, use my reputation and whatever and, and do it and it but it’s illegal. So certainly all these guys are risking, you know, when this slows down, someone might be knocking on their door someday.
Brad Wilson (13:24) Oh, for sure. And they’re very public about it, too. They give out their real name. And they’re processing all the money, which is exactly what is illegal. With the online poker deal. Like nobody’s ever been arrested for playing online poker, the processing of the money is very, very illegal. And these guys are just doing it leaving breadcrumbs as far as you know who they are. And it would definitely not shock me when everything slows down. If these guys get picked up, because it’s just stupid, but what you mentioned is another big part of why I hate how online poker has become, you know, if it was legal for you to do it, you would do it at the lowest rate possible, right? You know, even in Vegas, how much does it cost to get a license to be an online poker operator, right? That’s like number one, it makes it prohibitive for competition and innovation, and for people to get in this space and make sure that it’s better for the player because only a few people can afford to have an online poker site. And it’s just it’s just all bullshit to me and drives me absolutely crazy.
DGAF (14:33) Well yeah, I mean, I think it’s you should know by now it’s just pretty rig at the top. You know, it’s just it’s really hard to come up against the the people with all the money in not just in poker, but in anything, but maybe some of the being stuck inside your place for two months is adding to that. One thing unrelated, but I know For me, and I could easily forget it. And I think it’s important. You were talking about marketing. Enhance your edge, right? Yeah. And yesterday on Twitter, someone said, What’s your podcast name? I think you have a branding confusion. I think everything should just be chasing poker videos. Yeah,
Brad Wilson (15:22) I have I have the URL bought chasing poker greatness.com it forwards to enhance your edge. Maybe I should just direct everybody there.
DGAF (15:30) And that’s what like your Twitter handle should be like chasing poker great. Like it’s just, I think, I don’t know, it’s easy when it’s, you know, I know because I’m also trying to build brand and all this stuff that’s easy to overlook something pretty glaring? I think that I think that’s it. I think it’s a little confusing for people who don’t know you. And chasing greatness is a that’s a solid tagline. Company Name, whatever.
Brad Wilson (15:57) Thank you, sir. And Andrew reg was super long ago. It’s this is called laziness on my part, but coming soon, because the gaff told me to stop being an idiot. I’ll change everything to chasing poker greatness.com
DGAF (16:12) Yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, you can ask other people, but I think it’s just a no brainer.
Brad Wilson (16:17) Let me go back to what you said about online poker booming. And this is another thing that, in my mind is a misnomer about what’s happened during COVID. And also kind of bullshit. cash games are not booming. The 500 No limit, the 500 zoom on Ignition is as hard as it’s ever been maybe even harder. And tournaments. Maybe there’s a bunch more weak spots in the tournament world. But the cash game is not a it’s not super soft. hasn’t gotten better since COVID. And pretty much at every turn. With every operator, they really just don’t give a shit about the cash game guys.
DGAF (17:00) Yeah, that might be specific to ignition. I know, guys in other countries, literally can’t come up for air because the games are so good. And these are higher stakes players. So yeah, I know someone in England and someone in the Netherlands and, and they’re just anything even on wsop.com Someone in New Jersey that’s like, No, this is the corona boom. I don’t didn’t call it that. But that’s what it is. It’s possible that addition hasn’t drawn. The people that used to go to the casino can play whatever 510 Or two, five, I don’t know. But I just the smaller stakes, it probably has gotten softer.
Brad Wilson (17:41) Poker, when a recreational player can take $2,000 That’s in their bank account, deposit it to a poker site and play. Online Poker will boom, that’s where these guys from poker bros are coming from, they find an intermediary, they give them money, they get money on their account, there’s no Bitcoin, there’s no hassle. There’s no bullshit that they have to go through to be able to get into the games. And right now, there’s so many hoops for people to go through. And somebody that’s not winning at poker is not going to jump through hoops to get money onto a website, they can lose their money in many, many different ways. They’re not going to go through any trouble to do it.
DGAF (18:18) Yeah, I mean, there are, I know, you’re a big fan of online poker, but there are a lot of issues with it. There’s always been a lot of cheating issues and ghosting. And I mean, it’s I know, there’s the what the GPS, like it prevents you from playing from the same house as someone right? Or the IP address or whatever. But like, Why can’t two people at the same table be on the phone? Also? Like, how does that work?
Brad Wilson (18:47) No, they can? Of course they can.
DGAF (18:49) So it’s just it’s just, there’s there are problems with it forever.
Brad Wilson (18:55) There are problems with it forever. Like there are some security measures that I think could be implemented. That would cut down on a lot of the BS, but there’s no incentive for a poker operator to invest a lot of money into security, and making sure that everybody’s having a fair experience, because there’s no regulation, there’s no legalization, there’s no pressure they don’t have to, right. The only reason why bet online paid that bad beat jackpot was because they had social pressure. It wasn’t government or federal or the Gaming Commission that made them do it. It was because the reputation was getting dragged through the mud. So most good players though, like most winning good players, it’s probably not even worth the effort to collude. While you’re mass multi tabling, because it doesn’t do very much right. Like I can’t, I can’t think of playing six tables, having somebody on a call with me who’s like, at those same six tables and giving me information that I’m able to use, that’s going to be beneficial to me like I just I don’t See that? I’ve never tried it. So I don’t know how beneficial it would be
DGAF (20:05) if you if you played with a buddy on the same table. And even if you didn’t have that communication, but if you guys were sharing action the the people or the players are getting taken advantage of and that that’s just another way, I guess. Do they still have those games where you play one hand and then everyone gets shuffled to a new table? What’s that called?
Brad Wilson (20:30) That’s called Zoom or zone or rush or whatever, there’s a bunch of different names, that they call it nowadays, the biggest problem for me to bigger problems than human beings cheating, because, quite frankly, I’m not afraid of two dummies cheating and playing against me, I still am. Maybe it’s delusional self confidence in myself. But I think that if two guys are going to do that, that I probably have an edge on them just naturally. But
DGAF (21:00) oh, you did before they started cheating. But well, he’s got the edge now.
Brad Wilson (21:06) I don’t know. I mean, it depends on how mediocre they are. Like most of the people that want to cheat are typically not very good at poker. That’s just, that’s just how it works.
DGAF (21:17) Well, there’s some data that suggests that’s not entirely true. Some really good players have been caught cheating,
Brad Wilson (21:28) but depends on what your definition of cheating is. Right. So like, we’ll get into the jungle man thing in a minute. But the two biggest problems to me are real time assistance. And this is people who are running solves or whatever it is, while they’re in a hand getting getting some sort of feedback in spots they’re unfamiliar with that allows them to navigate treacherous waters easier. And number two are the bots and bots are getting better. The great thing about just deploying a bot and letting it run all day, they’re not emotional, they’re not going to change their playstyle. And for the most part, they’re going to crush human beings. So like getting rid of bots, and getting rid of real time assistants. Those are priorities number one and number two, for every single poker operator that exists.
DGAF (22:23) Yeah, another another thing that’s happened when I say this, this online boom is a ton of private clubs. And so the guys that were playing for big money at the casinos, they are playing online, there is a big boom, it’s just not in the in the general population. You don’t get to play against them. And what’s happening is, you know, whoever was like smooth in those games is organizing it. gouging them with rake being predatory letting them go way beyond their you know, when they’re until give me more give me more shirt, here you go. And busting them. And it’s already we’re two months in it’s already now you all these private clubs are coming together with unions and whatnot. It’s gross, man. It’s fucking gross.
Brad Wilson (23:10) That’s how poker is right? Like that’s what it’s has become in the current landscape. And let’s, we’ll set let’s segue into the jungle man, the jungle man deal because we’re already here. You know, jungle man, for those of you not familiar, Bill Perkins tweeted off saying that there was some news that made Mike Postel look like a church service one of poker heroes was involved a big cheating scandal and it turns out it was some private game with a bunch of ultra wealthy people in jungle man was ghosting which means one of the whales they had brought in to absolutely crush got crushed most likely try it and find out sought out a mercenary to to battle against the other guys is that that’s how I view it anyway.
DGAF (24:02) So yeah, there’s there’s a lot at work here. Because when we were messaging I said, Why do I not care at all about this? I just don’t care. And then because there’s a lot there. So it sounds like there was some predatory behavior getting this guy in, right like, Let’s get them on our online app and let’s you know, empty his pockets which you know, poker is it’s a hustle. It is it just is so not judging that even but then for that kind of outsmart them. It’s kind of just like he outplayed them a little bit by having someone actually really good play. And I don’t know it’s, it’s, it’s so great. I think a lot of people want everything to be black and white. Like, this is cheating. He’s horrible. Well, there’s a lot at work here. They were trying to take advantage of the one guy and then he got smart to it and He kind of owned them like a little bit, right? Or what do you think?
Brad Wilson (25:04) I mean? So I guess I can say that I, I don’t agree with ghosting, like, I wouldn’t do it personally, I don’t think. But I don’t think I don’t know. So this is the situation that I keep coming back on because like, on Twitter, everybody’s, most people, a lot of people are black and white, this is cut and dry cheating, this is cut and dry, bad Jungleman, scum, etc. And that’s fine. But to me, it’s a little bit, it says a little bit of virtue signaling. It’s a little bit of people saying, you know, this is wrong, I’m better than this, I would never do this. But they’re not in the arena of online poker, playing high stakes cash games as a pro and getting fucked with every single day by every single entity. And I don’t know the full story. But I can say this. I know of a private game, where they’re playing relatively big stakes. A friend of mine got invited, because he’s not so great at poker, and he has money. He played in it, he gets smashed. The Guy Who invited him in, he goes to him and he’s like, Hey, my friend Brad wants to play. He’s a pro. Can I get him in? And the guy said, why would we want good players in the game? Like you’re just straight to his face? Why would we want good players in the game? And obviously, my friend is very successful in life. He realizes, Oh, this guy is saying that I’m the fish, that I’m a bad player. So what happens two days later, I get a text saying, Hey, man, you want to play on my account? We’ll split the wins 5050 across the board. You can smash these guys, right? It’s just a logical next progression. Of course, no one wants to feel like the target. No, of course not. But guys running games don’t give a shit. Like they don’t care about hurting people’s feelings. They don’t care about anything.
DGAF (27:04) It’s not it’s not a glamorous world. A lot of people want it to be it’s not that’s, that’s why my content. It doesn’t appeal to everyone because it’s it’s just, I just don’t. I’m not about that. That that glamour of poker. Shit. It’s bullshit. It’s a dark, shady hustler world. A lot of poker heroes have done really shady things. And I put they can’t see but I put poker heroes in quotation marks. I don’t believe poker players are heroes like, no, they’re just hustlers. Which is fine. Like, hustlers have been around forever, and they will be around forever. And it’s kind of funny and interesting. But heroes No, like.
Brad Wilson (27:50) I don’t, it just just depends on your definition of a hero, right? Like I think the legend of jungle man will just grow from this. Nobody will give a shit in six months or a year. Are there people that claim to give a shit? And this is the question I want to propose to them that I’ve thought about a lot myself. Imagine there’s a game where ghosting is rampant. And there are some whales and they’re playing 501,000. So a big private game. Somebody approaches you who’s worth whatever, 100 or 200 million and says, Hey, I’m gonna put you in this game. I’ll take 100% of the risk you play under My Account? Are you going to do it? To all the people who are calling jungly cheater, are you going to take that offer knowing that if you run well over five or 10 sessions, you can win a million dollars?
DGAF (28:45) Yeah, I think a lot of people will that are saying obviously that are saying they wouldn’t. But I know you’re not gonna like this but all this leads to the problems with online poker man like, it’s just the only place you can get like a pretty fair deal, I think is in a regulated card room with good for people watching and I just you know, and even those strict rules that are annoying, like keep your phone off the table, that kind of stuff. I just don’t see, I know your opponent of online poker. So you’re not gonna like that.
Brad Wilson (29:23) But online poker is convenient. But should I hate the state that online poker is in? This is why I don’t support any of the operators. I hate the state that it’s in and it’s because cheating in online poker is incentivized. And I’m going to say that again. Cheating in online poker is incentivized. There is no punishment to cheating and online poker because it’s not regulated, and it’s not legalized. When they took that away from us, they made the Wild West even wilder and To me, until things get legalized and regulated, like I’m with you, I’m going to hate the way online poker is my vision of it would be video chat so that you can see everybody you’re playing against to make sure that you’re not playing against the bot algorithms in place that are determining whether people are playing too perfect. And if they are, their account gets frozen, and then intermittent screenshots of what this dude is doing on his computer that you can look at and say, Okay, this guy is playing for tables of online poker, and he’s not chatting with somebody on the side, he doesn’t have a real time solver, up. I mean, this to me, are all obvious good steps in the right direction. But who’s going to pay for the research and development in a space where people are going to play and they’re going to take their chances, and there’s no incentive to spend the money in research and development?
DGAF (31:01) Yeah, so it sounds like, it sounds like you’re saying there are ways to make online poker safe for players safer, safer, but there’s just there’s, it’s just not going to happen most likely. And in I also, I don’t want to just say it about online games, the private games that you know, poker is all about, like finding a sucker and taking his money at its core. That’s what it is, right? So these, these private games are the same thing. You know, with these beautiful girls and amazing food and all this stuff. You’re not getting a fair deal. You’re just not it might seem like you are but you’re not and you might not get paid. Like Rob, the rake is gonna sneak up on you. When you stop running hot. It just, it’s just tough man. It’s just, it’s just not a black and white thing at all. And I’m not judging any of it. But I also, you know, I’m not ready to consider anyone a hero.
Brad Wilson (32:09) Let me tell you, let me tell you, so, Freddy Deeb, I was finding a home game in Los Angeles, and me and Freddy Deeb are 10k behind, we get the money in. We both have aces, right? So we run it out, we decide to run to boards or whatever they run it out. It’s like the second hand of the night. We get our money back. I counted I have $9,200 Freddy has $9,200. They, they cut 1600 In a chop pot. That was all in preflop. And they gave it back to us, but only because we noticed and bitched those games clear 20k A night 20k A night. And it’s just again it human beings are greedy, the people who are running these games are very, very greedy. And this isn’t to say that online poker is not beatable, like you can still crush online poker, you can crush cash games up to a certain point. But you’re going to be living in a world of grey, and you’re going to be public enemy number one when it comes to the operators when it comes to you know, the bots when it comes to real time. Assistance, like nothing is there to keep the good players happy. Like, you know what I mean?
DGAF (33:37) It’s uh, that’s interesting. I was talking to a friend the other day. And he went, he was telling me about his home game experience where he was playing at a table and it by the end of the night, there were only three people left. And like, no one had left a winner. And one guy was stuck like 70 80k. And he was up 20k. And he was the only one winning it was just like the most insane thing like they took all the money like it but people don’t. People don’t realize it because they go there and they they start drinking whatever. And the girls are beyond beautiful. And there’s coke and all that stuff. And it’s easy to just not really think about oh, we were all trying to get
Brad Wilson (34:23) like the soft drink Coke. Yeah, of course. That is that is a highlight of many high end home games.
DGAF (34:30) Yeah, they always have a bunch of bottles of coke there. So I don’t know I’m I’m of the belief that there are benefits to online poker. It’s convenient, but don’t think it’s something it’s not, you know, even even worse, probably the private life games. But yeah, you’re just you’re just not getting a fair deal unless you’re at some cardroom that really right Like to in watches first off and has a bunch of lame rules. It’s, you know, so it’s fine play, but just don’t expect things to be everything to be on the up and up.
Brad Wilson (35:11) Yeah, of course, there’s gonna be a struggle, no matter what like, like I said it, we live in a world of gray. I got checks from Bovada for five years where they were in $3,000 increments, and I had to go to the bank and they were from Singapore. And when I would deposit them in the bank, they would be like, what do you do for a living? Why are you getting these checks? You know, which is funny, because I don’t like living in gray. I don’t like feeling like I’m a criminal or doing something wrong. Like, I just want to play cards, make money, cash out or lose money, whatever. But that’s just that’s the gig. Right? That’s the that’s the online poker gig. And if you’re going to immerse yourself in the game, these are the things that you’re going to have to deal with over time.
DGAF (36:07) Yeah, it’s that with the boom. And even before the boom online was profitable before moneymaker, but with that, poker as a profession became very viable because the money was there. But it’s also not really that viable for all the other reasons, just like neither of us, like all the shakiness, but we’ve been in it for so long. And it just, it wears on you eventually. Just, you know, like, Nothing surprises me. The gentleman thing didn’t surprise me at all. It’s expected. Yeah. And, and really, the possible thing doesn’t surprise me. Like, it wasn’t, it didn’t get me going either. Like, I’ve known lots of people who cheated, and I’ve seen it, I’ve been there. And like, it’s, it’s just like to say it’s part of the game. It’s kind of a cop out, but it’s part of the game.
Brad Wilson (37:03) Just say it’s part of the game. Like, I think it’s part of humanity, and humanity’s reaction to the game. Like, I love poker. I think poker is a beautiful game. I love doing things that almost nobody else on the planet can do when it comes down to like, making super light call downs, making, you know, triple barrel bluffs, whatever it is, that I do that gets me excited. But it’s all the human beings around the game that make the game shit. And that’s just how I feel about it. Like, players, nobody wants to lose, nobody’s in this gig to lose money. And so when you have an unregulated private game, you bring in a super smart guy that gets crushed his ego, first of all is going to come in and be like, I don’t like this feeling, right? Like, this is not fun. So then they’re going to call somebody, and they’re going to get a proxy to play in their, their place. And this is happening all the time.
DGAF (38:08) It’s so one thing I’ve been ranting about in my podcast for a while though, is I think the ideal way to play poker is to play with friends, and like, have fun, ensure you can have an edge and all that but there’s just a lot of problems with trying to play a cutthroat style. Just there’s there’s just endless, endless problems with online or life. You could you could do it online, there’s if you if you wanted to play with your friends on poker bros will suddenly it’s fine, right? Like suddenly, no one’s cheating, you can set the rate to the lowest thing very reasonable. And then but when the money gets too big, people are gonna get upset, but you keep the money in an amount where where people just aren’t really getting hurt. And like, they can afford it and they’re getting something when you’re playing with friends. You’re always getting something right. So oftentimes, the dynamics of a good home game is, well there is the one donator right, but he’s also the guy who has done the best in life. And he’s got the easiest life. And he’s getting all this entertainment. He decides what music plays and like he it’s cool, it’s fair, right and in a the people that aren’t doing as well in you know, financially, they’re going along going with the flow, right and but they’re also providing jokes and doing flips and do it that works as a system. Everyone just trying to get every last edge is a that doesn’t work as a system. It’s it leads to cheating and everything else, just bad games and, and people finding different hobbies, people that will be happy to take their disposable income and disperse it amongst people who get it. Well now they’re going to sit at a poker table. Now they’re going to take it to Baccarat. or somewhere else.
Brad Wilson (40:01) Right. And that kind of goes hand in hand with what I said earlier about, players don’t like to lose. And then why cheaters are typically not in super high skill level, because there is pride, there is a feeling, a good feeling you get when you have winning sessions when you play hands well, when you make a really good read in poker, and some people just don’t want to lose every single night. And so the route that they take is to cheat to give them that edge instead. And so I feel like for most people, like me, I can’t imagine wanting to cheat. You know, I can’t imagine just going out of my way to do that, because I already have this belief in myself that I’m going to beat the games regardless, and I’d rather sleep well at night, then feel like I’m stealing money from people. But for people less skilled that are just losing. Well, cheating is the easy out, right? It’s either cheating or investing a lot of time getting better at this game. And it’s much easier to cheat. So why not?
DGAF (41:09) Yeah, when I say and you said it short sighted, I say it a lot short sighted, it’s people, we usually are referring to people understanding that their behavior not understand that their behavior is killing the future of the game. But there’s another element to that if you’re going to be shady in how you get your money. So maybe you’re cutting off your source of income down the line, that’s short sightedness, but also you’re gonna feel like garbage inside. And that’s the that’s the thing people don’t talk about. Like, if you get your money the wrong way, it doesn’t matter, it’s never gonna make you happy. Never. And money’s not gonna make you happy anyways, but it’s not gonna even make you secure, it’s gonna make you feel like shit. And unless you like, you know, are sociopathic.
Brad Wilson (41:55) You just keep moving the goalposts back and back and back, and you keep compromising your ethics and your integrity until it doesn’t matter anymore until you’re just in it strictly to fleece as many human beings as you possibly can, and just take as much as you possibly can. But that’s how, that’s how a lot of successful people live their life and go through their life,
DGAF (42:19) but that you say successful, but it’s really, it’s impossible to feed your conscience
Brad Wilson (42:25) monetarily monetarily successful and successful in terms of just wealth and power.
DGAF (42:33) Yeah, but that doesn’t mean it’s just like the oldest trick like that doesn’t do much for how you’re going to feel inside if you did the wrong way. If you’re the right way, and you use that to help people and what not sure if
Brad Wilson (42:44) that’s just a story? Or if that’s just a story, they tell you. That what you can’t live with yourself if you make all the money the wrong way, just to play devil’s advocate. Have you Have you ever made a bunch of money? And did you feel bad about it?
DGAF (42:59) By a bunch of money the right way,
Brad Wilson (43:01) the wrong way?
DGAF (43:02) You know what, I felt bad about just winning the right way a poker, like, I lit my money on fire, it just felt so wrong having such an edge. And yeah, part of the part of the life pro thing is getting the game juiced up. And it’s just what it is. Right? So you’re using all these soft skills to build this amazing game. And, and often it works, right? You’re just taking from people who have disposable income, you’re winning from them. But sometimes, you know, you’re just crushing some guy who’s delusional and thinks he’s approached to win a tournament and you’re just and it didn’t make me feel that’s what got me into content. I needed something besides winning money out of my career. It just it made me feel gross.
Brad Wilson 43:45
So you self sabotage. You literally go on fire because you feel bad.
I had Yeah, I was I’ve always been very self destructive. But that was that was an element to it of. It doesn’t feel great, right? And even even after you win a bunch from someone and you kind of hustle on in a very legal poker sense. Wait, usually me my
Brad Wilson 44:05
for me, my hustle is you’re tricking people out of their money.
Brad Wilson 44:11
Give me an example of an example is
okay, so I was a professional poker player not really thinking long term. And I dressed like one look like one all that and I won all the time. And eventually I didn’t get actually anymore. I wasn’t I wasn’t an asshole. I wasn’t smug. I just didn’t give anything to the game right? And I really they really started resenting me and basically like, couldn’t play in my hometown anymore. had to move to Vegas. I got smart will kind of smart where I don’t want that anymore. So now I dress. You You see me if you just meet me you do not think poker pro and I have the ability to drink at the table and still play well. And it’s you’re getting people to play with you all night long, and they don’t realize they’re just a really big dog, especially when it gets short handed late in the night. And just, you know, winning. It’s tricking, but that’s what poker is.
Brad Wilson 45:13
I don’t know if it’s tricking like, I mean, I guess maybe I guess it just depends on how you look at it. I’ve never, I’ve never camouflage the fact that I’m a professional poker player in any game that I’ve ever played in ever. I assumed that people
do, I always will. I think it’s, there’s just so many problems with who wants to play, like, especially nowadays, people don’t want to play with professional poker players. I mean, they don’t want to play with like Phil Ivey or whoever, someone that’s famous, but just some guy who’s good at poker. It’s, it’s, it’s kind of bad for the game, to be honest, to show up and look, and act and talk like a pro.
Brad Wilson 45:52
Yeah, but like you said, you have the game on one side, and then you have this feeling about yourself on the other side. And so for me, in order to just be aligned with what I’m doing and who I am, I just show up. I’ve never had any problem like, nobody’s ever even said anything to me about the fact that I just play poker, like just by the way, I shuffle my chips by the fact that I’m in commerce 60 hours a week. I mean, it’s pretty clear that I’m a professional poker player. I’m not trying to enable anybody or anything like that.
No. Well, yeah, but see, I look at poker as a soft like hustle. It just always, if you ask the old timers, they would tell you that it’s just the nature of his
Brad Wilson 46:38
of it’s a meritocracy, man. It’s a meritocracy, where the cream eventually rises to the crop. And you could say that, or the cream rises to the top, not the crop. You can say that about any venture, though, in business businesses are cutthroat. They go after all of their competitors.
I’m not judging, I’m not judging the game. I’m saying. That’s the, I believe in all the stuff that I do I believe in. It’s a game, it’s part of like, it’s, it’s part of the whole thing. You’re trying to get the money at the poker table, right? If you sit if people sit down their fair game, right? Well, then you have to govern yourself to not take it further. Like to be president, you don’t want to be predatory stuff that, but even just that the game of poker, it’s fine. It’s a hustle. But it wasn’t fulfilling for me winning money for four years. I had to start doing other stuff, I had to start doing content. And I did content for a long time. You know, with writing and now I do podcasting. And I’m trying to get out, I want to be the will. I want that’s what I want to be I want to be the guy that comes in and says, I know you have fucking, like, a big parent, and I don’t care. I’m gonna put it all in with five, six suited, like, just because just cuz, right. And if, and if you’re over there being cool, then it’s gonna work. I’ll do it again. Right. I look forward to that. I do not like the but I’ve also played longer than just about anyone.
Brad Wilson 48:07
This seems like an imaginary scenario that will never ever happen. I can’t imagine you just getting your money and bad and being happy about it and be like, Oh, well, that dude’s cool. I’m gonna, I’m gonna let I’m just gonna give him some money. Like at the poker table. Are you kidding me?
No, it’ll happen. What I I am confident that I’m going in the right direction financially right now that I will be flush for a third time in my life. And I am also confident I’ve worked through a lot of the stuff that made me so self destructive. I used to just give people 5k Like, no, not even just here. Habit. Right?
Brad Wilson 48:45
You. So I’m not saying that you’re never going to make it the money. I’m just saying. It feels counter to every poker players nature, to just get money in bad and be happy about it. That just seems like something you will have to force yourself to do and I don’t know if you’ll feel good about it or not.
Well, I’m a gambler. First I became a poker. I played poker, but I’m a gambler. I like gambling. And the reason I play poker well is because I need money. But if I don’t, I won’t play they’ll even in our little home games. I do horrible stuff. And it feels fun. It feels like on the on the rich guy at the table, right? Because we’re playing for $5 or whatever. It’s just I don’t know. But yeah, of course, in this hypothetical scenario where I have a lot of money, and I’m not a poker pro anymore, if I go, I will be happy to take the worst of it. If someone’s the person is cool, if it’s you, across from me, I’m happy. But if it’s some smug kid, then I’ll be like, Well, okay, but now we have to play heads up. Like I don’t care. Like let’s go. Let’s let’s really see right but anyone that gets it No, I’m gonna be happy to just pay.
Brad Wilson 50:05
That’s fair man. That’s that’s a good thing to aspire to actually could be the be the Max Azria of every poker game that you ever play in.
who was who? So yeah, Max is a great example. And what did he own?
Brad Wilson 50:20
BCBG clothing brand? Yeah.
So we played with him a lot. And I’m gonna ask you a question. Who was winning the most? In those games? It would be like me you other pros and commerce rags? him? Who’s winning the most?
Brad Wilson 50:40
I have no idea who is winning the most anyway? So
like he like, if you don’t if you take it out of a money
Brad Wilson 50:47
set? Oh, so it’s a trick question. It’s a philosophical question. Yeah, man.
Like he’s sitting there smiling, sipping on a drink. Very happy. And the other guy, Mr. Chow, from the restaurant. Those two guys, they were winning the most the rest of us sitting there like, stressing like, Oh, shit. Like, if I lose his head right now, this is you because we’re playing much bigger than we are every other day of the week. And we’re like, trying to, you know, working so hard to have like us and all this shit. Like, in a general sense. Those two guys are winning in the rest of us. We’re, it’s fine. It’s just what we want in life. But there’s no question in my mind, they are the ones putting away,
Brad Wilson 51:29
it’s so I’m going to burst this bubble because I have insight into Max because Max did like me, for whatever reason, and me and Max got close. Max did not enjoy losing. He felt he felt bad. He felt like he was stupid, because he lost every single day. Now, did he ever try to get better? Absolutely not. And did he always act like he had a good time? He did. But he did not like feeling stupid. And he didn’t really like losing at the end of the day. But that
was gradual at the beginning, be I mean, he was surrounded by a bunch of fucking la knits. So that’s easy, right. But I know in games that I played with him, he was very happy with just how ridiculous of a human being I was at that time. And like, just how much I was drinking and the dumb shit. I was saying. And I know that didn’t bother. He probably never was bothered by losing a pot to me. Right. But someone over there not saying anything, you know, being very deliberate. And it just, it’s obvious to him that he’s a target. Yeah, of course, he’s not gonna like that. But he’s also still winning. He’s also the one where it doesn’t matter what happens today, right?
Brad Wilson 52:41
It’s Max is such an interesting thing. Because maybe one of my, the most interesting tangents of my poker career was becoming friends with Max. We were playing against each other, just whatever. And he invited me on his private jet, which I don’t think he had ever invited poker player from, like the commerce onto his private jet to fly to Vegas with him just because he liked me. And, yeah, a lot of things stemmed from my relationship with Max, including getting involved in the LA home games and all of that stuff, which was not a great career move. But I actually maybe took it a little too far in getting max to like me, just through my natural charisma and charm, because at some point, Max stopped playing with me in pots, he would want to check down every single hand with me specifically, and that, that just in and of itself, probably cost me 20 or $30,000.
Right. But that’s, that’s the great stuff, like on a human level. It’s pretty awesome, right? Like, that happens to me a lot where the whale the table doesn’t want to play against me in I know, it’s costing me money, but it’s also like this kind of shit in life. Right? Like, like, I just made it, we have a connection and it doesn’t matter. Who cares about the money like it’s in the end, it’s not really gonna matter that much. But it can be problematic.
Brad Wilson 54:09
I always did it with Max because I like Max a lot. And, you know, Max passed away last year. And the one thing that I’ll always remember about Max, you know, he’s a billionaire owns this giant global brand. And I flew in to La took Lyft to a game that Max was at and there was just a roomful of people and you know how Max, everybody gravitates gravitated towards him because he’s loud. And you know, he’s almost 70 years old, he would take his shirt off and plus he’s the big whale at the game that everybody wants to suck up to. And I came in I had been gone for like a week, and Max stopped everything he was doing, just turned around and was like my friend and like, ran across the room and like, kissed me on the forehead. Like, basically like I was the only person on the planet, right. And that was pretty cool to me. Like it was a cool relationship to have. And I’m sad that that he’s gone. But yeah, I think that’s way more valuable than the money.
Right? The 20k You forgot about? Yeah, you know, like that you’re not going to forget. And that’s just like a human thing. It’s a it’s a connection. And, yeah, so even if he was unhappy, and I think he gradually did get any head people in his ear to telling him stay away from these players, and this and that, you know, it just happens. You put a wealthy guy in commerce and shot, it’s gonna get ugly. But Obama,
Brad Wilson 55:41
look what happened with it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, those guys. So Obama,
for the, for the listener, we’re not talking about the forum,
Brad Wilson 55:50
not the president, a very action player
at Commerce name, are called Obama,
Brad Wilson 55:57
and he’s very wealthy. Lots of action, very wealthy. So commerce regs, the nits would pay the floor men, because Obama would call in every day to put his name on the list. They pay the floor men give them their phone numbers. When Obama calls in the floor, man would call those seven players. And then they would show up at the casino and just sit around until Obama got there. They wouldn’t even play while they’re waiting. They just sit around. Obama gets there. They surround him. And then they’re in a game with Obama. And like, he’s intelligent, right? He’s very successful in life, he realized what was happening eventually, that he’s playing with the same people all the time. But the nets man, they don’t give a shit. Like they’re just in it to take as much as they possibly can. And, yeah, that’s one of the things I hate most about poker.
Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s no place for kids, let’s it’s, it’s not this glamour is it’s not, it’s not a professional sport. It’s not, it’s a game. It’s a, it’s a hustle. It’s okay, I don’t, it’s fine. Get in it, but you stay in it too long, it’s going to wear on you. And you got to be careful while you’re in it. And also know that there are going to be opportunities to make money by compromising your own ethics or whatever. And if you fade those you can you can come out, right, but if you don’t, you’re gonna have to live with that shit forever. And you see that
Brad Wilson 57:31
it’s a catch. It’s a catch 22 Because when you when you do turn down opportunities because of your ethics, and then you know, people who are not turning them down, and they get to be 500k richer, because they are willing to step into a situation where they can cheat and make money. And you struggle, right, because let’s face it, you’re when you pass up these opportunities, it means that you’re going to struggle in the regular games that you’re playing in. You can get a little bitter you can get frustrated. It’s I just am really annoyed with online poker right now. I think this is pretty clear shining through in this conversation.
Yeah, I’ve never seen you annoyed before. So it’s, it’s kind of cool.
Brad Wilson 58:17
I mean, this is what like,
I mean, you’ve seen me tilt plenty. But I’ve never ever seen you till
Brad Wilson 58:24
I haven’t seen have a question to ask you. By the way. This has been on my mind for a long time. And I can edit this out for you, if you if you want. I remember a commerce because my sleep schedule was always super whacked out flying in from the east coast. The first day I’d be there, I would wake up at like 4am. And, you know, I would sometimes I would go to the gym. I remember going to the gym at 4am. And this dude that I have played against for a long time now is on the treadmill running at 4am. In the commerce gym. This guy who is well known for getting drunk, wasted at the table. Getting everybody else drunk is taking care of himself. What I have always wanted to ask you is when you were getting drunk Did you ever you know, tip somebody to get water from a server and ordered drinks for everybody else to get a bigger edge? That way what like there was a disconnect to me. Oh, you know what I mean?
What was I ever not drinking as much as it seemed? Yeah, no, I was always drinking as much as it seemed more in fact, overnight. I would have those little you know, I would order I would have them the porter go over to the store and get giant sugar free Red Bull and those little coffee cup things and ice and then I would bring vodka and it makes it so the exact opposite. I never I never went that route. No, I drink as much as advertised. There was, there was a period of time where I didn’t drink though. That’s, that’s what you’re remembering. There was. So the first time I went bust, I made about 60k a year, but the way I was living in spending that bus and now I had another kid coming in. So for I think it was 2012 I decided to only drink once every three months. And I was on the grind hard. And that’s when you saw me working out in the, in the little tiny gym at Commerce. And that was, you know, I did well that year, but I also felt so fucking like, gross. I don’t know, it just yeah, that was my first comeback. And I’m trying to make my second comeback now. But that was my first one where I didn’t drink for the whole year. And I ran back for like, the first few months. And then after that it was started running better and had one big session. And then never looked back. And then the next year, I started drinking again and playing heads up and destroyed everyone and eventually let down on fire.
Brad Wilson 1:01:09
Yeah, it sucks, man. It’s, it’s fine. What sucks. It’s not it’s not good. Because you’re one of the good guys in my mind. You’re one of the guys that that I root for in poker that I hope gets all the success, all the gold, all the fame, all the glory, number one, podcasts, all of these things, I genuinely root for the good guys, because, quite frankly, I mean, there’s there’s not that many around in this world. So it’s fun having one,
I appreciate it. Um, you also are one of the good guys. I also want to say that I kind of feel like unscathed. Like, sure I won. I’ve won literally millions. And I haven’t lit it all on fire in bad ways. I’ve lit it on fire in a lot of good ways, giving my kids a great place to grow up and very comfortable way from comfortable house. And I’ve helped a lot of people like phase and
Brad Wilson 1:02:11
feel how does it feel knowing that that you’ve done all that through poker,
I feel good man. Like, in my I have. I have stress in my life from my I’m still trying to make another comeback. And it’s I’m actually getting some momentum currently. So that part is really hard. But like, My conscience is good. It’s very good. I I lived very destructive, self destructive. I had just a very self destructive pattern my whole life, like my whole life. And I wasn’t aware of it during it.
Brad Wilson 1:02:47
How did you get? How did you gain awareness,
I hit I hit a rock bottom in 2017. And then it was it was bizarre I was I was taking a lot of Adderall. And I stopped doing that. And I don’t know if that led to a bunch of childhood repressed memories started coming up. And I started to understand, like, learn more about myself and my childhood. And then I started to understand how it shaped me into this person that well, while I was a giver, and like kind of loved everyone, for the most part, except for nits, I’ve always not got along with them. But other than that I always was, I was always like so hard on myself, I would punish myself. And I just kind of learned that and it’s a slow process. We’re three years later, and I’m just now I’m still like a DJ or whatever. But it’s just it’s a lot. Like it’s a lot different. It’s it’s not as deep it doesn’t go as deep as it used to him. And so yeah, it took me hitting rock bottom to even have any clue any insight into my own cycle and all that shit but but my conscience is fine. Like I feel good. I feel like I’ve done a lot of good I feel like I’m doing a lot of good now with like the community I’m building. And the my podcast does a lot for people. It gives people an escape a relaxing escape where they can relate and I don’t sell any bullshit like I’m perfect. No, I’m just as flawed as they are. Maybe more who knows. And I don’t feel really good about that. I’m, I’m battling and grinding heart and life. But inside now I feel fucking great.
Brad Wilson 1:04:33
people gravitate towards vulnerability and people who are not full of shit and are willing to say like, yeah, I went through this and it hurt. And I was scared and I’m learning and I’m trying to do better when you say that you hit rock bottom. And did you go to therapy? Was that a part of your process? Was it just all
yourself? So here I would recommend that for others but it just magically I’m someone that I had played poker with years before. And he always liked my vibe at the table. Psychiatrist, and I started, he offered me a job as an assistant. And then, so I didn’t go to therapy. But yeah, and I actually live with him. When I moved out of my house. I had a long overdue divorce. I should have been divorced years earlier. But I didn’t, I didn’t care about myself until I hit that and start, you know, and then I started the process of, of actually taking action my life. Well, I live with a psychiatrist. I worked with him, and I did a podcast with him called solicit advice podcast. So did I go to therapy? No, but yeah, I did. I went to it, like, all the time. And I learned a lot about breathing, cognitive behavioral therapy. And just, it’s, for a while it really sucked, right? You’re just kind of in your own head thinking about this shit all the time. Like, oh, my God, this, you know, whatever happened when I was four years old was brutal, right? Or, and then, but gradually, you stay aware of that, but it weighs on you less and you just start you know, I say that I exercise free will now for the that I didn’t use to and people debate that’s even real. But either way, I’m acting healthier.
Brad Wilson 1:06:23
What is free will mean what does it mean when you say that? So
it’s there’s we’ve had I’ve had a lot of in my community is a very good philosopher who comes on a lot who believes in freewill. And an amazing scientist who comes on a lot and does not says it’s everything’s determined. Determinism so that’s an interesting discussion. I’m not I haven’t signed off on either from from my own belief, but I believe there’s, there’s there’s levels to freewill level one is like, I’m gonna decide to stop eating like shit, I’m gonna get in shape. Like that one year, I decided to be healthy, right? That’s level one. But then there’s level two is when you really get to know yourself, the way why you’ve been always been the way that you’ve been. Once you’re very aware of that. And in the moment aware of it, you can start to catch yourself doing self destructive for me, it was my thing was self destructive. I can catch myself. And I can make little, it’s not easy, it feels weird. And you make little choices that you never would have made before. And it’s it’s gradual. And it’s not easy. But I’m starting to live healthier. And that’s, I was doing the opposite. For the first 43 years of my life. I was trying to like, always trying to punish myself. And now I’m trying to do the opposite. I’m trying to come up in a good way.
Brad Wilson 1:07:48
What’s the difference? Do you have like a tangible example of a time you would have done one thing caught yourself and did another thing?
I’m trying to say with eating with with drinking? Yeah. Oh. So something that was very that has made a lot of people like me, but was wasn’t healthy for me is I would do anything for everyone. Right? I would. I answered every question in my thread on two plus two for seven years, right? Even though there were trolls in there and people judging me and all this shit. I just did. And if someone asked me any, to do any favor that I didn’t know, I would. And that’s problematic. If you just do that for everyone. And I kind of during this like, last three years, I’ve learned that if I am always going to be like that, right? I’m just like, if you asked me to do something, I’m gonna do it. Right. But if someone I don’t know, ask me do it. I shouldn’t do it. Right. I probably shouldn’t. And especially as someone that has always gotten something from from me and never reciprocated. That’s kind of a buzzword that that I use a lot. So it’s really hard for me someone the other day. messaged me I was busy as hell I’ve been so busy. During this time when a lot of people aren’t and said, Hey, your contents always meant a lot to me. I wrote a book would you mind reading it and reviewing it? And my inclination that thing inside is to I was driving like to stop and like to message back and be like, Yes, send me the book. I’ll read it. And then I’m like, well, like no offense, but you’ve always enjoyed my content. You’ve never even like done anything. You’ve never reciprocate anyway, I can’t too busy sorry. So that may sound easy to people it’s not I literally wanted to like message back. You know, whatever message popped up while I was driving. I wanted to do that but I have to like so and that only comes with awareness that you are that layer trying to please people for fucked up childhood reasons.
Brad Wilson 1:09:51
But yeah, I’m the same. I have always been a giver in that way. Whether it was reciprocated or not, and And what’s really messed up about being that person is that the takers will find you. It’s like they have a radar and will hone in on you, and just try to take advantage of you as much as humanly possible. And it’s only when you realize what’s going on. You have awareness of the situation, can you break that cycle? There’s so many friends that I’ve think back over the years and think, good God Almighty, what was I thinking? Why did I spend four years with this person that never gave anything back to me ever? And I just didn’t know. And it does stem from childhood, it stems from a feeling of codependency. There’s a bunch of things that it stems from. And like you, you know, it’s classic self sabotage, right? Like you don’t feel good about the way you’re making money. You don’t feel worthy. And so what can you do that’s in alignment with feeling unworthy subconsciously? Well, you just light it on fire, and get yourself to the point to where you actually are how you feel about yourself?
Yeah, it’s a and so I questioned whether I could change to not be someone to like, stop what I’m doing and help someone? And I don’t think I can, it just is you have to feel right inside. Right? So the change I made is only doing that for the people that would do it for me. And it doesn’t have to be the same exact level. And that’s what’s been amazing about this community. It’s just the way the way I choose to monetize my content is voluntary pledges, right? So it’s just people who believe in the same thing, right. They believe in give and take reciprocation. And now that’s a filter of all the people that I don’t judge, but they don’t get anything else from me. You know, I mean, like, they just don’t like, you want me to answer a question? Well, like, no, you’ve always been enjoying, I just asked for a simple, like, tiny pledge for all the shit that I’ve done. And it’s fine. If you don’t like my content, don’t but if you do, if you listen to it every day, also fine, but I’m not doing anything else extra. And it works. And that’s why it’s, I got this community of people that are that are like me, and like, the biggest issue this morning was to fucking guys trying to send each other money, and like, they’re being stubborn over. No, you take the money you take like this, like good problems that have you know what I mean? Like, it’s just so that’s
Brad Wilson 1:12:36
for anybody that finds themselves in that cycle of feeling like they’re being taken advantage of, there’s an easy test. For the people who are constantly reaching out to you just start asking them for things, not like money, free things that are relatively easy to do. And if they are not willing to reciprocate, stop having contact with them. They’re just leeches, they’re going to take and take and take, and they’re never going to give anything back.
That’s, that’s a very, that’s cool. I like that test. And it’s just, you know, opposite to track, positively charged things attract negatively charged things, whatever. It’s, it’s real, right. But it also just just something. A side note to that is that we all go through times when we’re a little self absorbed, myself included, where you’re not as communal as you normally are. And that happens, things come up in life. And but then if people never come out of that cycle, that’s when it’s time to pull the plug on them, in my opinion. So let people go into that cycle. And either back away or tell them or whatever. And but if they never come out, then yeah, you got it. You got to protect yourself. You gotta
Brad Wilson 1:13:54
cut the cord, my cycle, always my downward cycle. Like if I’m feeling healthy, if I start moving, trending towards being more depressed or sad, the first thing I do is I cut off contact with everyone, I stopped really communicating with the outside world. And, you know, I started thinking about all the suffering in the world. That’s what that’s what gets me down, is like thinking about all the people being taken advantage of thinking about how all the stuff in Walmart gets there. Why am I shirt that’s made in Bangladesh costs $10 and was made all the way across the world with somebody that’s getting paid almost nothing and working, you know, walking for miles to work every day. Like just all of the human rights issues on the planet, and then the planet to how we just destroy our planet. And, you know, whatever, let’s, let’s take as much as we possibly can and ruin the planet for our future generations. And who really cares. All these things. That’s what weighs on me, but they’re all on unsolvable. And I think that’s why they weigh on me so heavily.
Yeah, my my advice would be, accept it, accept what the world is and do what you can do to control your world, right? Like, well, just just do what you can do to feel good inside. And that’s kind of what I do. And, like, my community is not huge. It’s 100 people right now it grows, like, every day, it’s, I have more people supporting me, but 100 choose to be in the community. And but it feels like my whole world, aside from my kids, and like, you know, people I spend time with, it feels like my whole world. So I’m kinda like, it works. It gives you that that good feeling inside. So you can, you can kind of follow that model. If you think it works.
Brad Wilson 1:15:53
I think it’s for me what works is just acceptance. Just I just accept that this is the way things are and go about my life and not get upset about the jungle man ghosting thing because that to me is like, like I said, on Twitter, number 1 billion on the things that I worry myself with or think about or am concerned about in the world. So like, it’s so insignificant, I just can’t find myself
kicked him out. It’s a matter of very wealthy people losing some money. Like there’s just not a lot of sympathy for the wealthy. No, right. Yeah, it’s not and it doesn’t mean it’s right or wrong, but the feeling inside is like, I don’t doesn’t it’s not getting me going at all like, you know, it’s it’s very thing and it’s It’s tough when you don’t have sympathy for the victims, like they’re wealthy and they probably got their wealth doing similar type things. And you know,
Brad Wilson 1:16:52
Daniels, Aryans dad stole a bunch of money and gave it to him as an inheritance. Like, yeah, I’m gonna feel real bad about that dude losing some money. Like it’s you can’t find a less sympathetic victim. I think the Daniels Aryan
Yeah, I don’t know much about him. But it’s just, it’s also in and juggler man just comes off kind of like himself. I don’t I don’t pay much attention to I don’t follow him or anything. But like, comes off like himself, like smart kid now going through this, like, transition of wanting to be with women all this shit. Like, it’s just kind of its, I don’t know, he doesn’t seem he’s hard to root against. You know, I mean, even though, but that’s just the way it is.
Brad Wilson 1:17:34
He is harder to against he’s sort of like, he’s an anti hero in the in the poker world. And he’s trying to find himself to write a lot if you don’t don’t think about the fact that you know, John was 30 years old, like a fish he is he’s a kid still. And he’s a kid who has grown up in online poker, which, by the way, they don’t teach you integrity classes about online poker, or poker, or principles. Like all of these things, we’ve had to kind of police and learn ourselves as a community. So it’s no wonder that jungle is he’s trying to find his own happiness, his own path in the world. So you know, whatever.
No, I mean, you could think about a screen name. And kind of, it’s kind of interesting to think about the screen name. Or just like what we’ve been talking about, like, it’s, this poker world isn’t as clean glamorous thing. It’s kind of the fucking jungle. Like, it just kind of is right. And that’s just the reality of it.
Brad Wilson 1:18:40
That matters to me. Like, I’m not sure if I said that earlier before we started recording, but I’m gonna say it again. The landscape of poker looks like Mad Max and Fury Road, just a wasteland with a bunch of crazy people who are all trying to kill each other and steal each other’s resources. Like that’s how, that’s how I view it in jungle. He’s the height man. You know, he’s the dude with the guitar, standing on the vehicle and going to war. It’s getting everybody hyped up.
Yeah, it just is what it is. It’s not, I don’t know. I’m kind of fun to the poker world. But it’s not a place I want to be entrenched in anymore. I have been for too long.
Brad Wilson 1:19:23
I like the poker world. I like a lot of the people. I always have a good time with my guests, and you, the audience, my listeners that are listening right now. I want to do everything in my power to help you, which involves right now, just not promoting any platform because I think it’s too risky. And they’re all bullshit. None of them care about the players. And over time, maybe one will show itself that I can trust and feel like I can support and then I’ll be more than happy but until that happens, like my goal. My job is to Take care of my listener, and pass on the wisdom that I have gained and also facilitate the wisdom that folks like yourself have gained from this game. And in my mind, you know, you do your guys a lot of service by telling them the truth, because the truth was not a linear process for us to figure out it was not a linear path.
We had popularity, either the truth is definitely not popular.
Brad Wilson 1:20:26
No, we learned through experience we learned through our own shortcomings our own, just dumpster fire of situations in life.
Yeah, but I mean, like, for the for the casual player, it’s a lot more insane to believe that there’s, it’s this great thing of, I’m gonna go in there, it’s gonna be fair, I’m gonna run it. I’m gonna play better run it up. And it’s, it’s not that. It’s not that fairy tale, but it is interesting in its own way. It’s, it can’t be
Brad Wilson 1:20:57
that fairy tale, though. If somebody is talented enough and wants to work hard, they can do it.
And what else? What else? They run hot. They run hot.
Brad Wilson 1:21:08
I don’t think so. I think give me a give me a tenacious 20 year old that wants to live, breathe, eat poker, consume all poker strategy, make themselves into a warrior. They can go broke, they’ll get a job, they’ll make more money and they’ll keep plugging away. And eventually, they’ll make money. Like eventually, they’ll have an opportunity.
Okay, but having an opportunity to make money is different than they will just climb to the top of the poker world.
Brad Wilson 1:21:40
Oh, the top of the poker world, you’re not going to go get there overnight. Most people are not going to get there in a year, two years.
It’s not like boxing or something where if the best pucks are you’re gonna work, you know, you’re gonna have to run good, like I will happily fade anyone you could take the best can find me the best 20 year old player in the world. And I will, you know, I won’t. I won’t like doing it. But I’ll fade them on a on a odds level, I will fade them rising to the top.
Brad Wilson 1:22:09
Well, the problem is not just about ability and talent. We have all of these other things that we’ve talked about in this episode specifically that you have to navigate successfully. And most people don’t have that grit. Most people just want to give up
grit resilience. Same thing I guess. You got to run good man. You got to run good and in those big pots. I interviewed someone from the community Irie guy. And he had he took his a case 70k to be a 10 10k by n and he was down his first six buy ins and he has last 10k out there and there are three hands left for the night. And if he you know he’s a big dog to come out of that game with much money and he’s going to be back to playing small well, he ate X his last 10k upon the last half of the night or whatever with a horrible hand with for for queen jack on in Omaha Hi Lo and pair of fours one and like just like it’s just the most insane story ever and yes, good player good such good soft skills all that but you got to think those those turning points or you can if you break those turning, if you’re the favorite and all that and you lose that that’s hard, but Well, let’s
Brad Wilson 1:23:35
break this down step by step dough. Dude took his 70k Yeah, bought in for 10k and dusted seven bullets. I mean, he’s not rolled for that game, right?
Well, no, but he’s a he’s a doctor. He doesn’t. That’s his bankroll, right. It’s not his life rule. He has a good job he’s getting he’s fine. It’s I agree with being super aggressive. That’s why I think people should have their own jobs and have their poker in the side can be as aggressive as you want. Chase poker greatness, as someone once said, go ahead. Yeah, but just sure being being good is really going to help being gritty, all those things. You’re going to need luck. You just are but so but that’s part of it. That’s what makes it interesting. I think,
Brad Wilson 1:24:17
in the long term, you will need luck. This dude had seven buy ins. So it’s a crapshoot as to whether or not he’s going to come out ahead. The dude, you know, the 22 year old stud? That’s got 70k That’s going to play 510 That’s where
Where’s he gonna play five to?
Brad Wilson 1:24:35
I don’t know. I mean, we’re looking Vegas, Los Los Angeles, Florida.
This games might not even be here next year. It’s it’s like it’s just getting so much smaller.
Brad Wilson 1:24:44
Well, I can’t predict the future. I can’t predict the future.
But eventually that guy’s gonna have to go upstairs and sit in a game with a couple other good players in one whale. And he’s gonna put a lot of his role on the line is you have to run good if he doesn’t Good, he’s going to sit back down. And how many times can he be sent back down? And yeah, I don’t know. But I do like the idea. I like the idea of chasing poker greatness a lot more than I like the idea of enhance your edge. Right? Because Chase look for greatness, but do it the right way. And sure the beauty of it is anyone that has any sort of clue could be, you know, find that greatness they could win the main event next
Brad Wilson 1:25:29
year. What does it look like to you? I poker utopia. You’re your own personal utopia, you have a poker room? What does that room look like? How do you make it as fun for the players? And as good for the players as you possibly can?
Depends where you are like, if you’re in Vegas, you have,
Brad Wilson 1:25:48
you get to pick the location. And this is your this is your playground
room. I would. I know like the as is why I suck at business. But I know like, in business, you’re supposed to maximize profits and whatever. But that just works against poker players, you can make a shitload of money charging a very fair rake, not jacking it up all the time. So I would I would charge a very fair rake, and you
Brad Wilson 1:26:15
have a trillion dollars. So money, money is no object for you.
Well, then I would, you know, it’s not hard, it would be very nice. It would be fun, it would be kind of did you ever go to the hardrock poker room back in the day?
Brad Wilson 1:26:32
Which one, the one in Las Vegas, I have not played very much poker in Vegas. It was
it was poker utopia. It was a little bit dark, there was a nice lounge in there. You could still see your cards, the lighting was just like great. It was dark, but you could see the cards. They played music. And people gamble and have fun. And it just, it was impossible to be Nitti in there. It’s just like, too loud, too many straddles. And there was just everyone that was there had fun. It just got mismanaged. But that was it. That’s the example.
Brad Wilson 1:27:11
What happens when you got you know, four guys that are cool, that are part of your crew. They’re in a game. And they’re playing against three knits who are not giving anything back. They’re just purely taking?
Well. So the one thing that strikes a chord with some people is that I always speak out against knits, the people that aren’t going to give anything back. And those are the ones that hear my shit. And they’ll hear this and they’ll go on my thread tomorrow and say something like, You’re a piece of shit dad, you know, I mean, like something like that. Right? So, but I do believe and I don’t like confrontation more than anyone else like I don’t but I do get lots of confrontations in the at the, at the poker table and online and what I will, because I believe you have to stand up to those people, you they have to, they have to not get action they have to be they have to be chastised if they’re ruining the game. And they what happens very, very often is they learn and they change. I know that there’s one player in Vegas, I said straddle because you know is building the game. And someone said this guy will never straddle. And the guy straddle like he you know you just like he probably said what and now he thinks differently now I play with him and he’s the one strategy and talking and like, now this guy is a good player winning money good for the game. And it took me it was easy with him. I just I just had it but sometimes you have to like tell people like you just have to be a vigilante so the four people need to tell the three people change or we’re not playing with you or I can you actually
Brad Wilson 1:28:50
tell the four guy to go?
What like mess with them know the players know the players have to manage that. You have to chastise people who who wants to take and not give
Brad Wilson 1:29:03
in I’m thinking about your poker room, man, you own it, you’re watching it happen and they’re not speaking up. You’re gonna you’re gonna exert some authority on him.
Know, I mean, if you’re gonna be passive in this life that’s on you. The Blueprint is there. I think I’ve provided a blueprint for Live Poker for over eight years now. And it’s you have to be good for the game. You take the person with the disposable income you give them something worth their while right? A fun time oriented conversation. You just like the shit the escape they want, right? And they’re happy to lose to you they are in general. They are and the ones that want the money but don’t want to give it so if you’re giving the money that’s usually enough, right you can be an asshole but if you’re taking money cannot be an asshole. You have to be the opposite. You have to be fun. The if you’re not, and people say, Well, I’m an introvert, okay, well then do other things like offer to flip. Anytime someone wants right neutral AV stuff, you got to give in certain ways.
Brad Wilson 1:30:11
And I’m introverted, and I’ve never had problems engaging with people at a poker table.
I assume that are people that are much more introverted than you are that it’s real. Some people have social awkwardness, or I used to have when I was younger, and I get it. So you don’t have to be the one cracking jokes. Let’s all do that. Right. But you also, when the guy that’s losing every hand, it’s clear, he has a good hand, and everyone folds and you have seven years offsuit in the big blind, or hopefully the straddle you better, you better ask them you want action? I have a horrible hand. Right? And if he says yes, you call and then you can fold on the flop or whatever and show that’s giving something right? It’s costing you in a vacuum in the moment. But overall, it’s it’s going to earn you lots and lots of money, that you may or may not lead on fire.
Brad Wilson 1:31:06
It’s good. It’s a good long term. It’s a good long term play. Everybody
feels good, right? It feels good. It doesn’t. It feels good when you know you gave someone value for their 5k
Brad Wilson 1:31:17
Use when’s the last time you went off on a nit? What they do genuinely made you angry.
You can you can hear in almost any episode. It’s there’s so many things. It’s, you know, the whales going off. And I don’t say well as a derogatory term, I say well as like, that’s what I want to be right? I want to be the guy that this is funny money to me. I know you guys are trying to you know, some of you are trying to at least supplement your income. That’s cool, make it fun, or fuck you. But that guy is going off. And he obviously is bluffing and the pro won’t turn over his dumb hand. You know, because there’s a chance he wants to know what the guy had. It’s just you have to, there’s so many examples of people not conceding tiny little you have to concede the edges. I don’t know one great live player that doesn’t concede many tiny edges. People consider Garrett probably the best lab player right now concedes the edges all the time. He’s talking all the time, doing whatever doing props? Does that help them play a hand against someone? No, it does the opposite. But does it help him get action for the next time? It does? Does he make a lot of money he does.
Brad Wilson 1:32:37
For sure. You have to give something back.
Little bits and pieces wherever you can. If you’re
Brad Wilson 1:32:43
to be honest, funny, be funny, the little bits of edge that you get back are not going to make a significant difference in your yearly win rate. As a matter of fact, if you don’t get any of them back, you’re not going to be in the games a lot. And you’re not going to have friends. You’re not going to be very popular and it’s gonna cost you a lot more money.
It’s gonna cost you money, and you’re gonna feel like garbage inside. But the good news is I was clueless when I was younger. And
Brad Wilson 1:33:14
has anybody ever done something like so out of line that you just like? went ballistic on them at the table?
No, do you know who haha is? No, I don’t. Okay, he’s kind of a Vegas character. He’s the only person that I ever tried to come across the table at night. He just was saying out of line stuff. Personal stuff. But no other than that. I try and I just challenge people to heads up. That’s the great equalizer. Right? Like if you’re smug nit NEWPRO and yeah, you’re on a heater you can’t even fathom you will a couple of years probably realize oh shit, isn’t how it is. I don’t follow a set every time in this five way fucking bloater. So that that’s always my go to is, is will like if you you do think you’re good. Like I don’t even care about being good. But let’s play like let’s see. Right let’s let’s see when, when folding isn’t a huge strategy. You know what I mean? Like, let’s see, when playing becomes the strategy. How are you going to do? Is it all memory? Is it did you study or are you good at this fucking game?
Brad Wilson 1:34:22
So I remember you and Garrett battling heads up. I was like in my room I had probably taken asleep aid and was like walk into the little convenience store in commerce and like stopped by the high limit section. I saw you and Garrett playing heads up. And I just remember there is you played a massive pot and like Garrett turned over like King seven off. You’re just looking at that hand and you’re like, that’s a good hand. That’s a hand worthy of $1,700 per year something. Yeah, he did beat you. It was just some snarky, snarky, silly comment that you made that made me laugh in the moment.
I don’t even remember playing him heads up because we became friends pretty quickly. And well, he did play a lot of free hitter and stuff and a lot of yeah, a lot of times like, holy shit, I remember. Yeah, I called one time and just this enormous pot for me, not for him. But for me. I’ve never had a bank roll. For me. It was big, like, maybe 20k pot or whatever. And he wasn’t even bluffing. He was just like going. And I was like, kind of hero calling you but it was just like, what? It was just insane. It is. But yeah, you got to you got to have fun, right? You got to make comments when when someone busts your entire roll of King seven offsuit because they haven’t roll and they’re disciplined and all that, you gotta you gotta just, wow, that’s a good
Brad Wilson 1:35:48
I mean, just be cool, man. I think that’s always my creed. As a poker player, just be cool to the people you’re around, and you know, you are experiencing something, right? You are having an experience while you’re at the table. And that experience can be good or bad. And it is worth something. It’s not worth money. But at the end of the day, you spend 10,000 hours playing Live Poker. I really hope you had fun doing it. And you enjoyed it, because that’s a significant part of your life.
Yeah, I had fun at the beginning. And then didn’t. I like heads up and I like really short handed, even against really good players. You know, that’s, I actually like the battling I like being able to, you know, I don’t like just always trying to figure out if they can fool like that’s, that gets old, it’s profitable, but it gets old. And not my new way of enjoying poker is just taking notes on all the characters and then trying to tell the story in my podcast. It’s made me I couldn’t even tolerate poker for a while and now I can tolerate again because I look at it as Oh, this will be at least be like good for the story. And you know, we’ll take some people’s minds away hopefully when I put it down.
Brad Wilson 1:37:03
Yeah, it’s just a different lens in the way that you approach and look at the game from your earlier self.
Yeah, I am not currently chasing poker greatness but I do
Brad Wilson 1:37:16
greatness is relative sir it’s an abstract term and can mean many different things to many different people.
I’m chasing podcast greatness. That’s what I want. That’s that’s where my passion is. And like community builder greatness, is it you know, and fatherhood greatness, but I don’t I don’t have that the fire. I don’t I’m not chasing poker. I still play anyone heads up there. I’m like a dickhead. But, uh, and I’ll dig deep and find that fire. But I guess Yeah, I’m just like, trying to get flushed one more time and then get out. That’s just the truth.
Brad Wilson 1:37:51
I want to be the facilitator to poker greatness to the people that want to be the best version of themselves that they can be I want to, I want to help them and put them hopefully give them the opportunity to get put in a place where they can succeed. So
I’m not saying I don’t believe in it, I believe in I believe in it the right way. It’s exciting, right? I believe if you’re a doctor, if 70 can get invited to a game that’s 10k by N Go, right? Because she you know, you got to you got to live your life right in it. Do
Brad Wilson 1:38:24
you love the game? Do you love like the actual game of poker anymore? Just the mechanics of it?
No. See, my thing is, I did like it. I loved it. I love playing it. I think with the preflop aggression, that just came whatever it came. It’s made it so high variance. If I was ever trying to test my strategic abilities, I would get into chess. And actually that’s a that’s another thing I look forward to do. If If and when I do come up again, is I will want to battle and chest see how good I can be right? That’s where you battle, right? That’s where you don’t need soft skills, you just and the best player wins. And but no poker for so long. It’s just been a way for me to, you know, give my kids a great life and just, you know, meet a bunch of amazing people and some some great people and some evil people and everything in between. And they’re all interesting, man. There’s a lot of for as much bad as I’ve said about poker world there are a lot of kindred spirits. It draws people that are that are kind of misfits in the real world like myself. I don’t I don’t belong in the real world. So that’s why I found the poker world and hopefully the the content game will do what poker used to do for me.
Brad Wilson 1:39:47
Cool, man. Yeah, I do love poker still. And I do enjoy the competitive aspect of it. That’s what fires me up about all the bullshit that’s going on in the online poker world is because it’s changing the way. You know, my, the picturesque view that I have, my ideal view of poker is changing that. And it’s making it something that is not really even poker anymore. And that to me is, you know, it’s horrible. It’s criminal. But hopefully, maybe one day we can get it changed in the future. Who knows. But whatever.
At least we gave people some stuff to think about. Sure. We didn’t saw, I don’t think we solved anything. But the game stuff to think about,
Brad Wilson 1:40:36
yeah, we’re not going to solve anything. That’s, that’s what we have to accept, we have to solve the things that we have direct control over. And that to me is sending people to training sites are the place where I think they’ll get the most value and will help them the most and protecting them from the shady operators that are the NIT of the business poker world.
I have had many opportunities to promote and have declined all of them, as well.
Brad Wilson 1:41:06
I accepted one early on PKC, because I knew the people and I trusted them. And yeah, that didn’t work out so well. No, that did not work out. So well. At the end of the day, at the end, at the end of the day, they basically decided that the US wasn’t viable and pulled services paid everybody back. Nobody lost any money. But I dedicated 10s of 1000s of dollars into hiring a team and marketing and everything. And they basically kicked me in the ass on the way out and said, yeah, it didn’t work out, fuck off.
Yeah, that’s very common in this world.
Brad Wilson 1:41:45
Whereas for six months, if I would have just been in the games, firing up six tables a day, taking as much as I possibly could, I would have made a hell of a lot more money.
But you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t feel good. I mean, you wouldn’t feel you were trying. It’s just, it wasn’t human, like you wanted to do this, like, get people on this good app, or whatever it was, and
Brad Wilson 1:42:09
I took money, I did crush it for six months straight. I didn’t take money. And I saw it as a decent opportunity for people that I felt good about sending them sending them there. But like the reality was, you know, I wanted to do a good thing that was in alignment with me, and also was monetarily rewarding, and hopefully good for the poker community, and good for the business. And what ended up happening was, I learned the lesson that at the end of the day, if I would have just been predatory and wanted to take as much as I possibly could, that would have been by far the more profitable route.
Well, that’s what I meant to say is you’re not predatory.
Brad Wilson 1:42:51
Sometimes I wish I were,
you’re not. And I have a good idea. I have a good idea for this. So this, I’m not gonna release this on mine. But what I’ll do is are you going to release this in two parts?
Brad Wilson 1:43:08
Probably not. I’m probably just releasing one. Man. People
can’t handle more than an hour. I suggest too. But man,
Brad Wilson 1:43:15
what is this? This is like the podcast coaching hour
is I mean, doesn’t your brain start to like melt for an hour listening.
Brad Wilson 1:43:24
They just they just pause it and then they started up again. I’m not like you. This is coming from the man that puts out seven hours of content a week, I’m releasing one episode, that’s two hours, they just pause, pause it and come back to it.
Alright, so you’re doing okay, but what I’ll do is we’re going to get aligned, the day that you’re going to release this, I’ll just release a 10 Second thing, telling my listeners here’s the pod for the day go to chasing poker greatness. And I think that’d be kind of cool. So they’ll get their drop normal drop in sessions, and then they’ll have to go to chasing poker greatness and then that’s good man. Maybe you’ll get it. I need to I need the competition man I need you to get on those those downloads come on
Brad Wilson 1:44:11
how many downloads we had Where’s where’s sessions at nowadays?
I think quarter million downloads a year so no, I mean know what? The first year was? 100,000 Oh, sorry, not quarter million. The first year was 100,000 the second year quarter million Yeah, so it’s going or maybe three
Brad Wilson 1:44:33
daily downloads man Come on, not the overall how many you get to every day?
Every day depends it depends what I released my individual stuff or I talked about how fucking like horrible in the real world but good at a few things people like that. So that even during Corona that gets over 1000 I think and certain get every day gets about 600 I think and some get more.
Brad Wilson 1:45:06
I’m coming after you. I’m moving more towards the Daily Show and unreleased days, I’ll get about 600 downloads and listens combined. And then it’ll slowly go down to about 300 a day until the next release. And I’ve been doing one a week, but I’m gonna gotta get on the daily release, train and give this podcasting thing full time shot.
Good, man. That’s, that’s chasing some greatness right there.
Brad Wilson 1:45:35
Man, it’s been fun. Yeah,
you feel any better. Did you get any? Do you get any of that? venting out?
Brad Wilson 1:45:41
No, not really. I mean, it’s still it’s in me. It’s just it’s gonna be in me for a while. This feeling that something’s got to change and the people who can exert the pressure and make people change are the players and we need to band together in some way shape or form. To put an end to the bullshit the shenanigans and make make poker great again.
Yeah. Yeah. I’ve been I’ve been on that for a while
Brad Wilson 1:46:18
to get it’s been fun. Let’s let’s do this. Fuck it. Let’s do this very often. Once a month maybe catch up? Yeah, see how each other go and give each other piece of content make life easier?
Yeah, we’ll take turns. For sure. So, so yeah, at 3am My listeners are going to get a little note that they can find the speed for the day over at chasing poker greatness. Okay, so if you could release it that time that would be fantastic, but it’s up to you.
Brad Wilson 1:46:51
Take care, man. Alright, peace.
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